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Junior USAirways pilots sold out.

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InclusiveScope

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Laid-off pilots can expect pay cut to fly regional planes

Karen Ferrick-Roman, Times Staff 02/11/2004


Pilots laid off from US Airways who are looking for jobs with its upstart MidAtlantic Airways division can expect to earn less than half of what the airline's senior pilots make flying mainline jets.

The Master Executive Council of the pilots' union approved a contract Monday evening, accepting US Airways' terms for flying 70-seat planes for MidAtlantic Airways, a not-yet-airborne regional division of the airline.

"There is nothing from the Air Line Pilots Association that prevents the launching of this division," said Jack Stephan, ALPA spokesman.

Because the contract stemmed from the filing of a grievance, Stephan said that rank-and-file members would not vote on the agreement, which is based on the contract for American Eagle, the commuter line of American Airlines.

A pilot's top rate will be $58 an hour, Stephan said. Depending on experience, and years of service with US Airways and the number of hours flown (usually 85 hours a month, 100 hours a month tops), a captain would earn $50,000 to $60,000 a year, and a first officer about $35,000 a year, Stephan said.

That's how much laid-off US Airways pilot Ron Gabler said he was making when he switched from military to commercial piloting 20 years ago. That's less than what a friend of his, a Pittsburgh bus driver, makes.

But if Gabler were offered a job, he said he'd have to take it.

Gabler, 57, a former pilot for Emery, the U.S. Postal Service and Eastern Airlines, had flown for US Airways only 2½ years before he was laid off in January 2002. Since then, he has worked for merely three months, as a corporate jet pilot. His wife, a flight attendant, has absorbed pay cuts of up to 35 percent, so keeping the family afloat has meant scooping money out of savings and pondering putting their Bell Acres house up for sale.

"People are so hard-pressed financially," Gabler said. "Subsequently, it's like throwing a bone to a starving dog. That, to me, equates to people being exploited."

Meanwhile, Gabler said, some senior US Airways pilots flying Airbus jets to Europe still pull down more than $225,000 a year. Senior pilots are the ones who still have union voting rights - and they decide the economic fate of the laid-off junior pilots, he said.

"In order to protect what they have, unfortunately, they're willing to sacrifice the wages and careers of pilots under them," Gabler said. "No medicine is too strong, and no sacrifice is too great, as long as they don't have to make it.

"It's not even immoral," Gabler said. "It's criminal."

"It's just not worth your while if you've got any time left in your career," said Mike Oakey, a retired US Airways pilot from Beaver. "I'd feel pretty sold out if it were me."

Stephan said he didn't suspect that pilots would be thrilled with the pay. "It's the low end of what that plane should be flown for," he said.

Although Pittsburgh has been the only city publicly discussed as a possible MidAtlantic base, Stephan said, the contract "doesn't preclude it from being based elsewhere."

MidAtlantic is "still slated for Pittsburgh, (but) issues have to be resolved," said David Castelveter, US Airways spokesman.

The airline and Association of Flight Attendants will discuss contracts today, Castelveter said.

Teddy Xidas, president of the local AFA chapter, has said the flight attendants' contract, like the pilots', is being modeled after the American Eagle agreement.

Talks will start with pilots again next week, as the union and the airline work out routes and staffing, Stephan said.

And, if the day should come to pass when MidAtlantic is flying larger jets, both the company and the union reserve the right to negotiate that rate, Stephan said.

MidAtlantic is expected to be flying in the next couple of months, Castelveter said.

Stephan said he expected the airline to start with four planes based in Pittsburgh.

Karen Ferrick-Roman can be reached online at [email protected].


©Beaver County Times/Allegheny Times 2004
 
This puts the lie to the myth of union 'brotherhood'.

Every Man for Himself-

I personally don't have a problem with this concept - only with people who talk big about union brotherhood, but exhibit this kind of action.



The money quote from the article:

------------------------------------------------
"No medicine is too strong, and no sacrifice is too great, as long as they don't have to make it.
------------------------------------------------

There you go.
 
ALPA. What a joke. This isn't a "union", its a gentlemans club.
 
I tend to disagree with what is being said here unless I'm missing something. I'll explain:

USAirways is creating a needed regional.?. That new company is being forced to hire ex-USAirways mainline pilots. But why? And what is this pilot's complaint? That he has been given a choice/chance to take a 60,000.00 a year job.

My complaint is this:

When is there a record that the mainline USAirways pilots have supported any kind of flo-thru (during the good hiring times) for those pilots at the regional carriers at the time. They were left to compete with anyone/everyone for those jobs at mainline. Now mailine is losing jobs and they insist that jobs created at this new regional should be theirs. It's a two way street guys. I personally feel that they should be happy to be getting these jobs especially when the're pilots currently at other USAirways regionals that would love to have those positions to move up from FO to CA.

Again, when times were good how vocal were these complaining USAirways pilots fighting for the then current USAirways regional pilots in getting on with them at mainline?

Personally, scope has never worked and it never will. All pilots flying for a brand name should be a pilot on that carriers seniority list. If that airline flys regional aircraft then fine; have pay rates comensurate with that aircraft. There is no difference in differential pay in that regard as there is no problem paying a 737 rate cheaper than a 777 rate. There should be no real regionals only larger majors that happen to have smaller aircraft in their fleets. Dave Siegal will manage those RJs just as Gordon ultimately manages CALX's RJs. Therefore, all pilots flying CALs passengers should be CAL pilots. Same goes for Delta, American, or USAirways.
 
The junior pilot in question are indeed the ONLY pilots at U to ever support a flow thru for the regional W/O pilots.

In 2000 a group of junior pilots (the 1186)pushed for a flow thru for ALG, PSA, and PDT pilots. They were torpedoed from the full flow thru but did manage to get a preferential hiring agreement tossed in with the small jet agreement. (LOA 86 I think was the number)

The agreement was rendered mute when the U/UA merger came up and U ceased hiring.

The agreement was something to the effect of 3 or 4 of every 10 new hires had to come from the W/O's. It is still in effect last time I checked.......that is if U ever hires again.
 
KeroseneSnorter said:


The agreement was something to the effect of 3 or 4 of every 10 new hires had to come from the W/O's. It is still in effect last time I checked.......that is if U ever hires again.

First of all, thanks for the information. That definitly gives some credibility to some of the complaining. But why are the mainline pilots insisting that all of these positions be filled with furloughed mainline pilots? Shouldn't a percentage of these created regional positions be given to current USAirways W/O pilots as well. Maybe there is a B-1900 F/O that should also be given a chance to fly the RJ.

You will notice that I am very pro-regional. I am sick of mainline pilots thinking everything is theirs to take and theirs to restrict. I may be a mainline pilot but I believe all CALX pilots should be CAL pilots as well. We should be one group of union pilots numbering 7000 instead of two. Our fleet should have pay rates established for RJ, 737, MD80, 756, and 777. There should be no scope clauses out there because they don't work. And this Mid-Atlantic is just another way for Dave Siegal to divide and conquor the mainline pilots. He's already got jr fighting sr over this issue. Who's fighting Dave?
 
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The company you keep

In America no one holds a gun to your head to make you take a job.

From this consumer's standpoint USAIR has been sending not-so-subtle messages over the last 20 years or so.

Their service was poor. Their gate agents were rude. They lost bags. Their flights were late. They were unapologetic. They passed the buck. They didn't tell the passengers what was going on--just act like you don't know anything and they will go away. They were the only game in town in a lot of their markets.

As an investor, These were warning signs--a company headed for big trouble (benefit of hindsight).

As an employee or potential employee these are exactly the things to look for when looking for a job. Is it a company I want to be a part of? Is it a brand name I am proud of? Do I think they are going to be around for the long haul? Do they treat people right? (notice "how much $$$$ do the wide-body captains make?" is not a question).

A lot of pilots were driven purely by greed in the past. This is a good lesson for those of us still looking for a job and what matters for long-term employment. Each company stands alone and USAIR made their own bed.

1) They're not profitable
2) They have a bad reputation
3) They continue to treat customers nastily even today
4) They never learned how to work and play well together

That isn't a pretty picture. We all feel badly for the individuals who worked their but at the end of the day they have to be accountable for their own decisions. They decided to go with USAIR.
 
That definitly gives some credibility to some of the complaining. But why are the mainline pilots insisting that all of these positions be filled with furloughed mainline pilots? Shouldn't a percentage of these created regional positions be given to current USAirways W/O pilots as well. Maybe there is a B-1900 F/O that should also be given a chance to fly the RJ.


PSA is 50/50 for the pilots on the RJ's.

MDA is 100% mainline furloughees until that list is exhausted then 100% of the newhires past that come from the W/O's. Then as Mainline recalls the W/O pilots take over MDA. That was the last I saw on the subject, so if it still holds it is basically a flow thru just like Cal has.

The biggest problem is that All the RJ's up to this point went to contract carriers. This was not the MEC's doing but rather Wolf's legacy. During the above mentioned Small jet negotiations in 2000, ALPA pushed for all RJ's to go only to the W/O's and as the story goes, Wolf got up and left the room rather than even discuss the idea.

It is clear why he did it, Money. If Mesa flew them U wouldn't have to buy them. But Wolf could still claim RJ service.

Additional sticky points is the sibling rivalry between the three W/O's No body seems to be able to agree on way to integrate all the lists. And the fact that the W/O's have continued to hire after mainline was furloughing. So there are some at the W/O's that haven't been there as long as some of the pilots have been laid -off.

Long story short it is a huge disfunctional family and we haven't even touched upon the bad blood left over from the last three mergers!!!

The bad part is that I have never flown with a better bunch of pilot. Both while at the W/O's and at Mainline.........you just can't have them in the same room together!
 
$58.00 per hour???

I made that much flying FIFTY seat jet when I was @ Mesa, I am sure JO feels down right CHEATED about now!!.....It probably wont work anyway, the ship is going down..Good luck to all still there..
 
The most disturbing thing about this MDA contract is that it undercuts the lowest regional ALPA contract out there for this size of aircraft. It is disgraceful. I agree that all pilots should fly under one brand name on one seniority also, but it is much too late for anything to be done now. The sad race to the bottom continues. Meanwhile, on the regional boards someone is begging for a job with Colgan where he will be shelling out 18k. Medical schools restrict supply, why can't aviation restrict pilot supply also- at the bottom where it should be!!!!
 
There has to be a better solution...aside from the scorched earth management policies that have been in place since deregulation.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/business/s_178906.html

By Thomas Olson
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Wednesday, February 11, 2004



With pay rates for MidAtlantic Airways pilots all but sewn up, negotiators for the pilots union at US Airways are weighing whether to let management bend contract rules for pilots and their pay at all of its express carriers.

But the Air Line Pilots Association said Tuesday that one thing won't change: Jets at newly formed MidAtlantic, the express carrier based in Pittsburgh, will be 100 percent flown by pilots who were laid off from US Airways' mainline flights.

"MidAtlantic's regional jets must by flown by those pilots," union spokesman Jack Stephan said yesterday. "They would never try to hire people off the street before they'd take a US Airways furloughed pilot."

US Airways negotiators are seeking to modify the so-called "scope clause" in their contracts to accommodate regional jets being added for its 11 express-carrier fleets. That lengthy part of its labor contract specifies how many regional jets the airline can use, seat capacity of the regional jets, and which express carriers can use them. It also specifies what pilots can fly them and at what pay rates.


For instance, the "jets for jobs" portion of the pilots' contract says MidAtlantic must hire pilots from the ranks of the 1,879 on furlough from US Airways -- including about 600 in Pittsburgh. Expected to start flying within a few months, MidAtlantic will fly Embraer EMB 170 regional jets with 70 to 78 seats.

PSA, another of the company's US Airways Express affiliates, also is adding regional jets. Last October, the Dayton, Ohio, affiliate started receiving the first of 60 Canadair 50 seaters and the first of 25 Canadair 75 seaters. Under the current jets-for-jobs agreement, half those pilot positions at PSA must be filled by pilots laid off by mainline US Airways.

"The company wants scope relief, but what kind of relief we don't know yet," Stephan said. Any change proposed to the scope clause of the pilots labor agreement would have to be ratified by the union members. There are nearly 900 active US Airways pilots based in Pittsburgh.

US Airways spokesman Dave Castelveter said scope relief talks were continuing but declined to provide specifics.

Late Monday evening, the pilots union's governing council settled a grievance over pilots' pay at MidAtlantic. The result was that a captain would get a maximum of $58,000 annually flying the 70-seat EMB 170, while a first officer would get a maximum of $35,000.

Because the new pay-rate deal settled a grievance -- which did not require reopening an existing contract -- the matter likely will not be subject to a full vote of pilot union members, Stephan said.

Meanwhile, US Airways CEO David Siegel plans to sit down today in Arlington, Va. with leaders of the flight attendants union -- for discussions similar to those with pilots leaders two weeks ago. Leaders of the Association of Flight Attendants expect to hear an outline of management's latest restructuring plan.

"All we will be doing is listening to their business plan. There will be no negotiations during this meeting," said Perry Hayes, president of the Association of Flight Attendants' US Airways unit. "We will listen to how management plans to turn the airline around for the long term."

US Airways flight attendants' ranks have been cut almost in half since September 2001. The 1,175 in Pittsburgh compares with more than 2,600 previously, while systemwide, their ranks have fallen to 5,200 from roughly 10,000. In addition, flight attendants have seen sick pay and health care benefits reduced.

"(Management) will make sure the flight attendants have a clear understanding of the financial results we reported last week and have a broad look at the general framework of the future direction of the company," said US Airways' Castelveter, of today's meeting.

Any management proposal for flight attendant concessions "will be a tough sell," said Hayes, who was one of four union leaders to sit on US Airways' 15-member board of directors. "We gave twice," he said of concessions agreements in 2002 and 2003.
 
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KeroseneSnorter said:


MDA is 100% mainline furloughees until that list is exhausted then 100% of the newhires past that come from the W/O's. Then as Mainline recalls the W/O pilots take over MDA. That was the last I saw on the subject, so if it still holds it is basically a flow thru just like Cal has.


With what you describe above not one pilot goes to mainline that is currently with a W/O. How is that like CALs flo-thru?

It just means that eventually MDA is flown by W/O pilots of today.
 
MDA is going to fly on Mainlines certificate. Don't know how they pulled this off, but for every sense of the word MDA is mainline. Only the pilot contract is different.

As far as 121 certificates go, it is one airline.

So since there will be hell to pay if someone new is hired at mainline and placed ahead of a "fellow" pilot at the airline with more senority, it will in effect be a flow through. The only way to keep the peace is to offer mainline to all who want it.
 
KeroseneSnorter said:
MDA is going to fly on Mainlines certificate. Don't know how they pulled this off, but for every sense of the word MDA is mainline. Only the pilot contract is different.


Then Dave Siegal is up to something. Because they're is no reason to have it different then.

Basically, it is a Metro, Song, CAL Light, or Ted if that is the case. If it is in fact a mainline carrier then it certainly makes sense that the pilots in furloughed reverse seniority should get the first opportunity. i.e last one furloughed from mainline becomes number one at MDA.
 
Every furloughed mainline pilot at U has the opportunity to go to MDA (MAA actually) whenever they want, when their seniority is called up, unless they resigned their seniority from mainline. Also, any current mainline pilot may bid MAA, which is supposed to allow a furloughee or MAA pilot to take his place at mainline, in seniority order of course. Can't imagine any current mainline guy going to MAA, but these are strange times.....
 
It was supposed to be separate, or more separate than it now is, but the Feds told U that if they use the same certificate, then it's the same airline. They can call it the Embraer division.....
 

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