jumpseat abuse on jetblue

[pylut]

Seems to me any pilot jumpseating ought to have enough sense to take the extra 30 seconds and check in with the crew flying his butt home or to work. If he lacks the etiquette or respect for the position necessary to do that then leave him at the gate.

 

[Sniper@YourFeet]

At CAL we don't require a pre-list like SWA.

And I'll include this, SWA doesn't have International destinations so should CAL take them off our approved International list since they don't offer it to us?

Your approved international list . . . that is a pre-list. For many regional carriers (and others not on the international list) who offer CAL pilots unlimited international jumps, it is really frustrating. Don't you even charge COEX guys to non-rev? Man, how hard are you guys trying to help out your fellow pilots anyway?

Gordon is on record as stating as long as he is at CAL unlimited will never happen. Maybe we can pursuade in the next contract but I'm not going to give up a week of vacation to get it.

The week of vacation aside, what would you give up to help out your fellow pilots?

Originally posted by Cororado418 My biggest beef when I was at Allegheny was that more often than not, there was never a thanks, after the ride. It still bothers me, but we pilots as a whole have to accept the 10% MORON factor and keep the jumpseat thing alive or we will be hurting the "polite" majority.

If I'm JS'ing and am in the first couple rows and have a connection I'm trying to make (or if I just have to use the bathroom), do you really expect me to sit and wait for the door to be opened so that I can thank you again (I always ask for a ride, I don't care what the back of my ticket says or how busy you are, JS'ing is a privledge).

Do many pilots really expect another 'thanks' after the flight? Seriously, I would like answers to this.

If I ever find anyone on my aircraft who was JS'ing and didn't ask me, I will speak with them, and a denial is not out of the question here (if you try this in shorts, anticipate a denial). The lead FA nor the gate agent has the authority to grant a JS on my aircraft (what airlines allow gate agents and FA's to grant jumpseats?). If you are non-reving or traveling positive space, then you are NOT jumpseating. If you are jumpseating and are issued a seat assignment, you are still jumpseating, and you should check in with me.

As far as open jumpseats are concerned, I don't see how CO and Fed Ex are in the same league on this one. Cargo carriers who don't have the doors are prohibited from allowing jumpseats by the govenment - CO's (and AA, DL, UA, etc) are due entirely to managment. I have no problem with 30 Fed Ex guys jumping on a 'Blue flight, but when 30 CO guys do it and don't seem to care that they are not extending the same privledges - it's not apples to apples here.

I encourage all pilots to give as many jumpseats as they can, and, if they currently don't offer unlimited off-line ones to all destinations, they should try to negotiate for them. How much are they worth to your fellow pilot? About as much as the ticket would have cost b/c they were prohibited from jumpseating.

Treat others the way you want to be treated.

 

[pa56pa]

As far as I'm concerned, jumpseating as many of you have said is a previlege.... and as a courtesy, one must always be respectful and notify a pilot crewmember for reasons already given.

Each airline is different... Fed Ex is not SWA, and SWA is not JB, nor is JB DAL, CO, UA, or AA. Each one has a different policy which is dictated by management. The captain may deviate from any policy, but jumpseating is probably the last thing on a company's mind... its a PERK... Those who feel bad about not getting equal reciprocal agreements should really just move on and try another carrier. These airlines are not intentionally targeting pilots or FAs that commute, they're after the mighty $$...

So... stop whining and appreciate what you have as well as what you can give. If you can offer a jumpseat.. GREAT! if not, it's cool... Frustrated we may all feel, but anger should not be directed to any crewmember because of policy. And it has nothing to do with one being international and one being domestic, and the other being cargo... I know alot of you feel like if you give an inch, they ought to give you a foot.... think beyond the box..

 

[colorado418]

If I'm JS'ing and am in the first couple rows and have a connection I'm trying to make (or if I just have to use the bathroom), do you really expect me to sit and wait for the door to be opened so that I can thank you again (I always ask for a ride, I don't care what the back of my ticket says or how busy you are, JS'ing is a privledge).

Do many pilots really expect another 'thanks' after the flight? Seriously, I would like answers to this.

Let me ask you this. If you were hitch hiking on the highway and I picked you up, would you thank me only when I stopped to pick you up? Or would you also say thanks when I dropped you at your destination?

How long does it really take to open the cockpit door?

30-45 seconds after the brake is set?

I am not trying to get folks to grovel. I would never ask that. Just seems that there is a lack of common courtesy some times...

my 4 cents...

 

[Dennis Miller]

Wasn't it Sam Kinison who said "You people need to move to where the food is! "

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And what would be your response to anything related to pilot contracts. That unless a group resets the standards for industry leading that they didn't try hard enough? It's easy to stick up for yourself if you are currently working for an airline that offers unlimited.

But what happens if you get a job with UPS or FedEX and can't even take a jumpseater? Would you like it if I returned the favor by saying no when it is simply not your fault? Maybe the FedEX and UPS pilots should stage a walkout for a day, then maybe the TSA, FAA, and their management would have a change of heart when the freight industry comes to a one day screaching halt. By your statement maybe they just aren't trying "hard enough". I just disagree with you on this area.

Gordon is on record as stating as long as he is at CAL unlimited will never happen. Maybe we can pursuade in the next contract but I'm not going to give up a week of vacation to get it. Just as a JetBlue pilots W-2 isn't affected by a management team that allows unlimited.

At CAL we don't require a pre-list like SWA, so should SWA pilots be forced to do it our way. I don't think so. That is their policy and I can live with it. Just like I'll gladly take a SW guy to Hong Kong even though he can only take me to Kansas City.

If CAL evers allows unlimited again I can assure you I will take unlimited and not be pissed at a group of pilots that aren't in the position to do the same. It's called unity.

Cal/CalEx,

Your post is disappointing to read, but I am glad you are participating..

First the FedEx/UPS deal is apples to oranges. It is a door configuration problem and when the CASS program goes into effect it should address it. Don't use the FedEx/UPS guys as commonality because a) it doesn't work and b) the answer to your situation is within

Sorry you won't give a weeks vacation. How about a small fraction of that higher than every regional pilots hourly rate? If you won't give something up then perhaps you should decline the open jumpseat in the back. CAL won't give international unless CAL gets international. What's the big deal? The only destination that matters is the one I am trying to get to whether it be London UK or London KY.

Here is the deal. One of the above posters cited contract language that they negotiated. It is iron clad and they gave up negotiating capital to do it.... here it is..
-----
When it is not required to have the cockpit jumpseat occupied for Company purposes (e.g. FAA flight checks, cockpit familiarization, deadheading crew members, etc.) the Captain of any aircraft operated by the Company will have complete and unquestionable authority to allow flight crew members of the Company or any other carrier, to occupy the flight deck jumpseat, or an available seat in the passenger cabin of such aircraft.
-----
Now why can't CAL do that? NWA? The DAL driver above is pissed that they don't go unlimited. He is talking to his ALPA Reps and the company!

Go to your next LEC meeting pass a resolution that directs your MEC members to pass the same resolution at the next MEC meeting. Put in your next LOA. Management always wants something...so go get unlimited.

First you have to get off the deny deny deny and make counter accusations mode. You actually made it sound like it wasn’t your problem and there is nothing you can do about it... Who’s gonna get unlimited at CAL? jB, ASA, ACA, CMR, Buthune as he departs? Look in the mirror!

Until then enjoy the unlimited jumpseat high road on the regionals...

It's all good

 

[CALformerCALX]

Cal/CalEx,

First the FedEx/UPS deal is apples to oranges. It is a door configuration problem and when the CASS program goes into effect it should address it. Don't use the FedEx/UPS guys as commonality because a) it doesn't work and b) the answer to your situation is within

Sorry you won't give a weeks vacation. How about a small fraction of that higher than every regional pilots hourly rate? If you won't give something up then perhaps you should decline the open jumpseat in the back. CAL won't give international unless CAL gets international. What's the big deal? The only destination that matters is the one I am trying to get to whether it be London UK or London KY.

-----

Believe me when I tell you I undrstand the difference between UPS/FedEX and the rest of the industry more than you know. And as far as CASS is concerned I'm about as up to date on that as anybody on this forum.

My point of even mentioning them was the statement that pilots should start reciprocating only what an airline offers them. I disagreed with the poster. I believe if your policy allows something then you should gladly offer it and not hold a particular pilot group responsible when it isn't their faults to begin with. Wethe that be a management team or in the case of UPS/FedEx the TSA.

As far as your statment about CAL only offering Int'l to those that reciprocate you are false. We have many carriers on our list that get In't on us yet don't offer us Int'l in return.

As far as giving up a week of vacation or a little pay I also disagree with you there as well. This mentality is exactly why some management teams are starting to bring jumpseat issues up at the bargaining table. The JS should belong to the CA and unfortunatley because of pilots with your thought process management is realizing they can get something out of us. I say you tell them nothing will be given the JS is not negotiable and as long as TSA guidlines are followed then let the CA decide. It's reasons like your thinking why managments have learned and continue to learn that as they take away things we've always enjoyed openly that we will readily give up something just to get it back.

And regarding your comment about charging CALX pilots to commute. That is a choice by all pilots at CAL and CALX.

Any employee (CAL or CALX) with 9 yrs or less pays 10.00. First class is 20.00.

Any employee with 10-19 years gets coach free. First class is 10.00.

Any employee with 20 yrs + gets free first class as well.


Any pilot can jumpseat for free so I don't understand what your talking about when you say we, meaning CAL take advantage of our CALX pilots by charging them. That's false. It's the same for all employees.

 

[CALformerCALX]

Your approved international list . . . that is a pre-list.

First of all when you quote me as above I would ask that you not chope it up to look opposite of what I said.

And no, that is not a pre-list. Do you even know what pre-listing is. I was refering to SWA policy to get their jumpseat. What I was saying is that is their policy and I can live with it.

CAL has an approved JS list of carriers that we have recipricle agreements with. Some are allowed Int'l and some are not. That is determined by the JS committee and management.

 

[CALformerCALX]

The week of vacation aside, what would you give up to help out your fellow pilots?

As far as jumpseating goes. I don't believe we should ever negotiate with managemnt for something we have always had. Before long this form of thinking is going to get management to completely drop any and all JSing then require us to give up something at the table to get it back in it's smallest form then they'll state," And if you want unlimited, you'll have to give up this." then it will be, "And if you want Int'l it will require you to give up this," and so on. No wonder we, as a profession, keep going backwards.

 

[PCL Flt-ops]

This is a very good thread about jumpseating in general, and some of the important issues.

TWO Important things:

#1) UNLIMITED JUMPSEATS is something that needs to be negotiated into every airline's contract (both Major, National, and Regional airlines). Where does this policy need to start? It needs to start at ALPA NATIONAL. It should be standard ALPA procedure for any airline that is negotiating a contract. In addition, there needs to be a detailed section of each airline's contract that protects restriction of the jumpseat by agencies such as the TSA. A simple clause to the effect of "Should the FAA or TSA restrict jumpseat access, then the airline will provide a positive-space seat for any jumpseating pilot who needs it." The Jumpseat is too much of a neccessity these days for commuting pilots and can not just be subject to immediate change by airline management.

#2) OFFLINE COCKPIT JUMPSEATING must be restored. There really isn't much to say on this except the obvious. It must be restored on both pax and cargo airlines.

 

[Sniper@YourFeet]

I believe if your policy allows something then you should gladly offer it and not hold a particular pilot group responsible when it isn't their faults to begin with. Wethe that be a management team or in the case of UPS/FedEx the TSA.

So, it's not the Continental pilot's fault, it's managment's fault? Then how do you justify the following statment:

The JS should belong to the CA and unfortunatley because of pilots with your thought process management is realizing they can get something out of us. I say you tell them nothing will be given the JS is not negotiable and as long as TSA guidlines are followed then let the CA decide.

The above policy would be a fine one . . . if it was your policy. But, it's not. It is in fact, Bethune's, only he has added the caveat that the CA doesn't have the authority to offer all open seats to off-line pilots, so your "then let the CA decide" really means 'then let the CA decide the fate of one or two open seats' on an empty flight.

Originally posted by CALformerCALX As far as jumpseating goes. I don't believe we should ever negotiate with managemnt for something we have always had.

Unlimited free off-line jumpseats, that's what we're talking about, right? CO doesn't have them.

"The JS is not negotiable" (your words exactly, in context too!). And, that's fine by you. You will continue to have a poor JS policy, you will continue to charge your own pilots to non-rev (yeah, you charge other employees too, but we're pilots, so we try to take care of our own, ya' know?), you will continue to make no efforts to secure the same privledges you enjoy at other airlines at your own, and you will continue to enjoy the unlimited JS's that your fellow pilots offer you. You pay nothing for it, and they negotiated it for you, so they in fact pay for it.

The reason guys are riled up is you are the only one who has publicly come out and acknowledged your apathy towards off-line jumpseating at CO, while one Delta pilot has supported the idea of limiting Delta JS's to as many as Delta will allow (a far fetched idea IMO, but quite in line with reciprocity, for sure). I know most other mainline carrier pilots are like you (just look at their own JS agreements), but, b/c they're not commenting, you get to shoulder all the pent up angst. Tough job, but someone's got to do it.

Delta has the gold standard in pay, and they know it. U has the gold standard in Jumpseating (first class for free!) or maybe jetBlue (FA jumpseat open to off-line pilots) and they know it. You will always be held to the gold standard here at flightinfo (just ask the Mesa guys what if feels like to be below the gold standard on flightinfo). You don't meet it, you don't seem willing to give up anything to change it, and it is one of the few issues that impacts your fellow pilot more than it impacts you. Those fellow pilots I refer to are the one's criticizing.

I will admit, you got me on the 'pre-list' at SWA thing, though. Not the same as your limited 'international list', though it doesn't change the fact your international list still is too limited, and therefore, is going to get criticized on here.

Ever the critic, huh?

Sorry to direct this post at one guy, but he's the only one playing the other side right now - which I think is quite telling in and of itself.

 

[Sniper@YourFeet]

It was all a dream . . .

. . . I used to read Professional Pilot Magazine,
Pilots and FA's flashed a badge -no longer had to be screened.

"Should the FAA or TSA restrict jumpseat access, then the airline will provide a positive-space seat for any jumpseating pilot who needs it."

If, due to my constant whining to 'CALformerCALX', this becomes CO policy, I will eat some serious humble pie!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As far as jumpseating goes. I don't believe we should ever negotiate with managemnt for something we have always had. Before long this form of thinking is going to get management to completely drop any and all JSing then require us to give up something at the table to get it back in it's smallest form then they'll state," And if you want unlimited, you'll have to give up this." then it will be, "And if you want Int'l it will require you to give up this," and so on. No wonder we, as a profession, keep going backwards.

Cal/Calx,

Your first sentence. You don't have unlimited j/s! However you indicate in your post that CAL does. I don't get it. Management controls the airline. So if you want to travel on company in first class to training, then you have to negotiate it! (for example)

Direct question that needs direct answer. How do you propose CAL pilots get unlimited j/s? Or are you statified with the status quo?

My concern is the membership runs the show, so if you don't contact your ALPA CAL leadership and promote change, the chances of it getting done are slim to none. It starts right here...

 

[Tripower455]

In my 10 years of offline commuting, I NEVER went past the cockpit while riding a jumpseat pass. It is common courtesy to ASK PERMISSION to ride on another person's aircraft. If the Captain doesn't want to see you, he will tell you to go sit in back.

I also go out of my way to say thanks on the way out as well.

Jumpseating is a privilege that a lot of folks depend on, and it only takes a few idiots to ruin it for everyone......

 

[Falconjet]

More observations

First of all I should qualify my comments with the fact that I am not a commuter and I have never jumpseated offline. I don't have too much to lose if offline jumpseats go away, but I understand the impact that would have on about 70% of those of us in the profession.

My first comment is that politeness and common courtesy dictate a "request" for the ride (remember the magic word......please?) and a thank you after the ride is over. More thanks (and even cookies) would certainly go a long way toward improving good will between pilot groups.

At FedEx, some of the jumpseats are reserved in advance by scheds to accomodate pilots who want to jumpseat back to domicile at the end of a pairing instead of going to the hotel for crew rest and then deadheading back on a pax carrier (with a paid ticket). The perception can become that you are owed the jumpseat and its no longer a privilege. We are constantly reminded by management and the union to observe proper jumpseat etiquette even when it seems like a given that we have a ride.

Now consider offline jumping. How many times do you think that Ford execs bum a ride on one of GM's company jets when they happen to be going to the same place? I'll bet none. Imagine your competitors offering you a free ride to get to work so you can compete against them! What a gesture! Unheard of in just about any other industry. Now does it seem so far-fetched to expect a thank you at the end of the ride? I don't think so.

Come on jumpers, be pleasantly surprised when you are given a ride and be sure to say thanks on your way off the plane.

Thread creep: What do you think is proper etiquette for someone deadheading with a ticket?

Anyone with thoughts on that?

FJ

 

[AlbieF15]

If I have a ticket, I

A-still introduce myself to the crew and say "thanks" for all the previous jumpseats...as in "hey guys...the company got my ticket today but I've been given quite a few very appreciated rides by your team. Just wanted to stop by and say "thanks again" as I sure appreciate the rides to work and back home!"

B-act like a gentleman at all times and

C-be an "ambassador" for the airline industry. If someone is carping about delays, poor service, etc I usually (if not in uniform) tell them how often I fly X and how they usually provide GREAT service. If in uniform and they are asking technical questions, I don't say "I don't work here" but instead explain about wx, etc or whatever questions the other pax ask.

It ain't that hard, and I usually find the jumpseat/deadhead to work or back home one of the places where I either psych up for a week of work or unwind and switch to family (or too often ANG) mode.

The world has enough jerks out there. Let's all make a committment not to be one...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Re: More observations

Now consider offline jumping. How many times do you think that Ford execs bum a ride on one of GM's company jets when they happen to be going to the same place? I'll bet none. Imagine your competitors offering you a free ride to get to work so you can compete against them! What a gesture! Unheard of in just about any other industry. Now does it seem so far-fetched to expect a thank you at the end of the ride? I don't think so.

Come on jumpers, be pleasantly surprised when you are given a ride and be sure to say thanks on your way off the plane.
FJ

FJ,

I like your thought process, however, remember, airline pilots don't compete, management does, let's leave the fare wars, pricing and airline control to....them!

Think of giving someone a ride to work as keeping the safety record incredibly safe. You don't want a fellow pilot stressin' to get to work only to bring that stress into the cockpit...

Yeah, that's it..that is what we airline pilots do, both cargo and pax.. We fly incredibly safe... (and we should get paid incredibly well to do it... oops..did I interject that thought out loud? )

 

[CALformerCALX]

Cal/Calx,

Your first sentence. You don't have unlimited j/s! However you indicate in your post that CAL does. I don't get it. Management controls the airline. So if you want to travel on company in first class to training, then you have to negotiate it! (for example)

Direct question that needs direct answer. How do you propose CAL pilots get unlimited j/s? Or are you statified with the status quo?

My concern is the membership runs the show, so if you don't contact your ALPA CAL leadership and promote change, the chances of it getting done are slim to none. It starts right here...

-First of all, I realize CAL doesn't have unlimited. I also realize CALX does.
-Currently, management doesn't allow unlimited. They used to until for some reason 7 years ago Gordon elominated it based on complaints by FA and gate agents. We the pilot group refused to allow it to become a bargaining chip and still choose to do so.

As to your direct answer I feel you wait until management needs something short term and maybe then get it back and that has almost happened here in the recent past. But pilots have lost too much ground after 9-11 to be constantly willing to negotiate every single item managment wants to put on the table. And no I am infuriated with the status quo. Also, Gordon has announced his leaving at the end of the year and I am certain that one of the first things CAL-ALPA will take to Larry is a re-instatment of unlimited to show good will as we move forward. If that happens then we win the battle and the war and it cost the piloting industry nothing in doing so.

 

[CALformerCALX]

Re: It was all a dream . . .

If, due to my constant whining to 'CALformerCALX', this becomes CO policy, I will eat some serious humble pie!

First of all if CAL ever gets it back the way it once was then I will as excited as you and I don't feel as though I am apathetic when it comes to jumpseating issues.

But my question to you is. You know what airline I work for. Who do you work for? Then give me the courtesy of spaeking about your perfect policy. Fair is fair.

I have to admit you will win any debate against me because you are simply better at editing the quotes. I am left to answer to several posts at a time while you are able to cut,paste, and insert in a way I haven't learned on this forum but that is OK. At least my info is available for you to see who I really am. You just show as though your still in the militay and not actually with an airline.

 

[PCL Flt-ops]

CALformerCALX:

I'm just curious... why does your signature say "When I get the chance it's bye bye CAL."

Do you want to leave CAL for somewhere else? If so, where?