jumpseat abuse on jetblue

[CALformerCALX]

Re: JB dude is almost right

As for reciprocal agreements, I fully agree! I am sick and tired of trying to get on airlines who only allow one jump seater for each jump seat only to have 5 of them getting on our aircraft such as AA. I think our jumpseat rules should be the exact rules of the individuals airline trying to jump seat. Not meant to punish anyone, but it might put pressure on the pilots to get their jumpseat rules changed. OK, I am done now. Someone elses turn

That's interesting coming from a pilot who flys for ASA. Back in 94-96 I was always turned down by your airline because at the time your airline didn't allow jumpseating. Ironically, I never once returned the favor by extending "exact rules" as you put it. I routinly allowed ASA pilots on my jumpseat and was glad to do it because we were allowed to take jumpseaters.

 

[jetblue320]

Airtran J/S

To reiterate what Ty and FLB717 said (but was maybe missed) Airtran does indeed take our F/A's in their jumpseat. In fact, they were probably the first, if I am not mistaken, to reciprocate with our F/A's. One of our senior F/A's who was formerly with Airtran was the instrumental one in setting it up.

Thanks Airtran!

C Ya

 

[de727ups]

Horizon Air

It speficially says on the back of their jumpseat form to NOT talk with the flight crew until after the flight is over.

 

[VADriver]

Without quoting everyone here I'll just make some points:


- I disagree about those that feel tit-for-tat. You don't offer us unlimited so why should we allow you unlimited? Well I'll answer that. Regardless of what anyone thinks here; management owns the jumpseats first and formost. Here at CAL we have tried to get unlimited and Gordon is 100% against it. So should someone now deny us for that reason. Hell no. It's the same with cargo now. Should we deny them outright because they can't take us at all. Hell no because it's not the pilot groups fault.

Cal/CalEx,

How much are you willing to give up for unlimited? Everything is negotiable. The VA based mid atlantic regional where I work..not only is jumpseat a privlidge..it is a negotiated right! After the company has determined they can't make a dime on the empty seats, we then own all the seats for jumpseating purposes....

Here is what we got...

When it is not required to have the cockpit jumpseat occupied for Company purposes (e.g. FAA flight checks, cockpit familiarization, deadheading crew members, etc.) the Captain of any aircraft operated by the Company will have complete and unquestionable authority to allow flight crew members of the Company or any other carrier, to occupy the flight deck jumpseat, or an available seat in the passenger cabin of such aircraft.

This is the real deal on the unlimited jumpseat.....

The regionals and LCC have unlimited becuase as part of the low pay or company culture one gets free travel. At the Show like CAL, DAL and UAL travel is still paid for by the employee to ride on thier own carrier. (perhaps its different today, but this is the mentality that lead to no unlimited at the majors..)

So when a regional/LCC pilot shows up and takes the third out of two jumpseats and sits in the cabin, the rampers and gate agents go nuts. why should an off line pilot ride for free when I gotta pay even 5 dollars on my own carrier! Fellas, five bucks is five bucks.

So how much where you willing to give up to Gordon to get unlimited for your fellow off line pilots that offer you unlimited. This is where it gets tough.

You gotta a DAL pilot living the Peachtree lifestyle. He can pick up an extra round at his sweet hourly rate and make his offline commute home in time to see Johnny play soccer. Perfect. More money and the wife and kids are happy.

However, the incentive to give up some of that sweet hourly rate is almost nil. "why should we get unlimited for off line pilots when we already got it for ourselves with them..." After the DAL, CAL and UAL pilots get true reciprocating unlimited for the regional/LCC pilots they will have to deal with the pissed off rampers, gate and FAs that still have to pay to ride on thier own carrier...

Are the CAL and DAL pilots ready to give up more of that sweet rate so all employees can ride for free so offline pilots can have unlimited?

Powell may have better luck with Arafat.

 

[skyboat]

What Tim47SIP said-

He's correct, that is the policy in the ops manual at CMR. If the gate agent gives the "jumpseater" a boarding pass that individual is no longer a "jumpseater" but instead a "nonrev" pax and does not need to check in with the flight crew. In fact, they are not listed as an ACM on the manifest and have no responsibilities as an ACM. Now, if they don't get a boarding pass but instead have only a jumpseat request form, than they are considered an ACM and must be listed on the manifest as such.

That being said, common courtesy suggests you should at least say hello but a CMR crewmember cannot force the issue if that individual has a boarding pass with a seat assignment.

With different airlines having different policies it is sometimes hard to know what the proper protocal is on another airline.

 

[Hutcha]

- I disagree about those that feel tit-for-tat. You don't offer us unlimited so why should we allow you unlimited? Well I'll answer that. Regardless of what anyone thinks here; management owns the jumpseats first and formost. Here at CAL we have tried to get unlimited and Gordon is 100% against it. So should someone now deny us for that reason. Hell no. It's the same with cargo now. Should we deny them outright because they can't take us at all. Hell no because it's not the pilot groups fault.

My three cents...
The employees are partially to blame for their airline not allowing open (or FA) jumpseats. At most airlines, jumpseat rights are something that's negotiated for. At US Airways, they negotiated for 1st class privileges and later for an open jumpseat.

If pressure is not put on other employee groups to put pressure on their company, the company has no reason to open things up. Most airlines recently have come to the employee groups asking for concessions. Most of those employee groups have given concessions. This would have been the perfect time to demand an open jumpseat..... "We'll give you that 51% pay cut, but we want an open jumpseat in return"!

There are hundreds, if not thousands, that use the open jumpseats on jetBlue, US AIR and others to get to work. If those that did not have a reciprocal agreement were cut off, I bet you they would get some progress made.

For those that say you've tried and the company rejected it, I say you haven't tried hard enough. Airlines don't give something for nothing.

For those that say the jumpseat should not be cut off, I say don't complain about other airlines that don't reciprocate. They won't (in most cases) ever reciprocate unless their employees demand it. Those employees won't ever demand it unless they have reason to. They won't have reason to unless they need access to a seat that they don't currently have.

Thank you and enjoy your day....

 

[Dizel8]

Good points Hutcha.

I am always amazed at airlines that charge their own employees for nonreving, seems like something that cost very little, but has a large effect on morale.
While I am not a proponent of restricting access to jumpseats, it is true, that companies that do not reciprocate with multiple jumpseats, have no reason to change as long as they can get it on other carriers. After all, they have unlimited jumpseats on their own carrier, so they are set.

Sure, everything can be negotiated, but it would be better if it was done, simply because it is the right thing to do, without having to give other concessions. Why an airline would be opposed to it, I do not know, politics above my paygrade I suppose. Heck, I would even be happy to pay a nominal fee like on Airtran, than to spend another couple of hours at the airport.

To make a long story short, I will continue to welcome jumpseaters and if I have any open seats, I will bend over backwards to get you on.

 

[Hutcha]

Other airlines are opposed to it because other airlines don't give something for nothing. It doesn't matter if it is the right thing to do or not for them. They know that if the employees want it, they can bleed something out of them in return.

 

[Getter]

Anyone noticed?

Has anyone noticed that this has become more of problem since 9-11, when we lost cockpit authority for offline carriers? When we had the cockpit jumpseat availability, you HAD to talk to the captain and it was his/her decision if you could take a seat in the back.

As a side note; does anyone know where we stand lately with the TSA as far as getting cockpit authority back?

 

[atldc9]

Just a note of correction, AirTran does offer jumpseat travel to FA's of several airlines, all of whom reciprocate with our FA's.

The FA's from other airlines, not AirTran, however are NOT ALLOWED to sit on the actual cabin jumpseat. They must have a passenger seat.

That being said, if you make it to my airplane, and there is a seat, anyone can rid, FA or pilot.

 

[j41driver]

At ACA the Captain has the final authority to grant or deny a jumpseater. From the ACO Jumpseat Policy & Procedures Manual:

Captain’s Authority

-The captain has the ultimate authority on the aircraft. This includes making the decision to grant or deny boarding to any Jumpseater. Any person can be excluded from the flight deck in the interest of safety. If a person is removed from the aircraft, a report must be filed with the ACO MEC, the Jumpseat Committee and the chief pilot’s office.

-The captain must verify the requesting Jumpseater’s airman certificate, company ID, and documents.

-The captain must refuse passage if procedural, security, dress code, or behavioral requirements are not met.

-If the Jumpseater is to ride in the cockpit, the captain will ensure that a flight deck briefing is accomplished. This briefing shall include but is not limited to: Use of the CRM, oxygen masks, emergency exits/equipment, evacuation procedures, communications equipment, sterile cockpit procedures, smoking, and seat belts.

-The captain has the option to offer a seat(s) in the cabin if one is available, however in the post 9/11 environment Captains should occupy cabin seats before utilizing the cockpit jumpseat.

-The captain shall have final authority and resolve any conflicts with multiple Jumpseaters.


Also here is part of the the guidance that our Jumpseat Committee has given us regarding off-line jumpseatng:

The Captain and the Request

A jumpseat request may be denied for trivial reasons. If there is not a reciprocal agreement, then do not expect approval. The request for the jumpseat begins on the jetway/ramp. Politely hand a flight attendant your ID and paperwork. While you are waiting on the jetway/ramp for the F/A to invite you on board, think about where to put your bag (gate-checked or on board). Do not make assumptions here, unless the captain states, “Welcome aboard” right away. Ensure that a clear request to jumpseat is made.

 

[100LL... Again!]

------------------------------------------------
For those that say you've tried and the company rejected it, I say you haven't tried hard enough. Airlines don't give something for nothing.
------------------------------------------------


'bout sums it up.

 

[pa56pa]

speakin of jumpseats....

SWA wont allow jumpseaters less you're on their list... I've had to pay for my tickets to commute to work everytime.. and $200 r/t is expensive!!

I tried jumpseating on JB out of JFK but was refused because I didn't checkin 30 min before departure... which seems to be the norm these days... it's cool, I ended up paying.

Granted I work for a 135 charter company and is difficult to reciprocate previleges w/ other airlines, but I sure wish we can go back to the old pre 9/11 days...

Anyway, I'm wondering what airlines do allow unlimited jumpseats?

 

[colorado418]

Jumpseating is a courtesy extended to others. At jetBlue we have been able to extend the unlimited jumpseats due to the open and forward thinking managment folks that we have. The company owns the jumpseat. They have the right to set policy of how many jumpseats a carrier allows. (The Captain does though have every right to set his policy for any particular flight.) To take it out on other pilots because their carriers have not extended the priviledge of multiple jumpseats and F/A to others is wrong. We have the priviledge here at jetBlue to offer that to others and I think it is great. It is not a tool to "get back at" others with. I believe that someone mentioned earlier, take the high road. That is what we have to do.

Etiquette...
Hmm. This is a tough one. F/A's could easily have been working at Nordstroms two months prior to taking their first jumpseat ride. They probably would not have a clue as to what protocol is. Not that I am defending them...

As for pilots.... I think that everyone knows that it is a courtesy. Hopefully they remember that when they get a ride. If not...SHAME on them. My biggest beef when I was at Allegheny was that more often than not, there was never a thanks, after the ride. It still bothers me, but we pilots as a whole have to accept the 10% MORON factor and keep the jumpseat thing alive or we will be hurting the "polite" majority.

my 3 cents....

 

[ACWild]

I've had to deadhead on JB many times to OAK. Sometimes I've had to go in uniform. I'll usually stick my head in to say "hi," but if it looks like the crew is busy, I try to stay out of the way.
Alot of JB captains sneer at me when I'm leaving the plane and they see me in my uniform. I always thank they crew even though my company buys the tickets. Some crews won't even reply or look at me because they think I bypassed the captain's authority and "snuck" on their plane.
I understand the issue, but try to understand that alot of us in uniform have tickets that are paid for. If you're curious, ask before dishing out the attitude.

 

[colorado418]

I've had to deadhead on JB many times to OAK. Sometimes I've had to go in uniform. I'll usually stick my head in to say "hi," but if it looks like the crew is busy, I try to stay out of the way.
Alot of JB captains sneer at me when I'm leaving the plane and they see me in my uniform. I always thank they crew even though my company buys the tickets. Some crews won't even reply or look at me because they think I bypassed the captain's authority and "snuck" on their plane.
I understand the issue, but try to understand that alot of us in uniform have tickets that are paid for. If you're curious, ask before dishing out the attitude.

AC, Sorry you have been sneered at... I appreciate a jumpseater that knows that it can get busy up front at times. Hopefully you have more pleasant experiences in the future if you deadhead on us.

BTW, for better sound, bring you own headset for the long rides. Ours that we hand out have about a 5-6 hour life it seems.

 

[dispatchguy]

As a dispatcher, whenever I fill out the form to ride, even if given a BP for the back by the gate, I will always pop my head up front, if just to say hey, thanks for the ride...

After all, even though I dont need to if I have the BP, I will, to show courtesy to the PIC - and the FO.

Even if I am nonrevving as a shmoe nonrev, I'll usually pop my head up front just to introduce myself - just to make my presence known.

 

[CALformerCALX]

For those that say you've tried and the company rejected it, I say you haven't tried hard enough. Airlines don't give something for nothing.

And what would be your response to anything related to pilot contracts. That unless a group resets the standards for industry leading that they didn't try hard enough? It's easy to stick up for yourself if you are currently working for an airline that offers unlimited.

But what happens if you get a job with UPS or FedEX and can't even take a jumpseater? Would you like it if I returned the favor by saying no when it is simply not your fault? Maybe the FedEX and UPS pilots should stage a walkout for a day, then maybe the TSA, FAA, and their management would have a change of heart when the freight industry comes to a one day screaching halt. By your statement maybe they just aren't trying "hard enough". I just disagree with you on this area.

Gordon is on record as stating as long as he is at CAL unlimited will never happen. Maybe we can pursuade in the next contract but I'm not going to give up a week of vacation to get it. Just as a JetBlue pilots W-2 isn't affected by a management team that allows unlimited.

At CAL we don't require a pre-list like SWA, so should SWA pilots be forced to do it our way. I don't think so. That is their policy and I can live with it. Just like I'll gladly take a SW guy to Hong Kong even though he can only take me to Kansas City.

If CAL evers allows unlimited again I can assure you I will take unlimited and not be pissed at a group of pilots that aren't in the position to do the same. It's called unity.

 

[CALformerCALX]

If those that did not have a reciprocal agreement were cut off, I bet you they would get some progress made.


For those that say the jumpseat should not be cut off, I say don't complain about other airlines that don't reciprocate. They won't (in most cases) ever reciprocate unless their employees demand it.

Nothing in this thread talks about the lack of a reciprical agreement. It is discussing levels of reciprocity. Are you paying attention?

 

[afroman]

I agree with reciprocity 150%. As a Delta captain who is sick-and-tired of being forced by mgmt to leave others at the gate, I hope that you don't let our guys on your airplane if you already have a jumpseater. Maybe this will get some of my DAL brothers off their lazy asses, and they raise the kind of hell that I've raised with the union and mgmt about the whole thing; I would think that if all of the DAL pilots shared my opinion, something would finally get done.

Another thing: the FedEx/UPS guys need to really start leaning on mgmt, too....I don't even get to send a fukking overnight letter for free, much less get on one of your airplanes any longer. For those of you who are wondering, yes, I do still give FedEX and UPS rides, but I also give them my opinion -- DO SOMETHING the industry is getting tired of this crap.

Fire away.