jugement at 500 hrs vs 5000 hrs?

[deemee boosgkee]

From time to time I see other high time pilots preach to low timers about how, in hindsight, little breadth of knowledge and experience they had at say 300 to 1000 hrs for example and how back then they "didn't know what they didn't know." Being a fairly low time pilot myself I am curious as to specific aspects of real world airmanship, judgement and decision making skills that GENERALLY aren't developed among pilots at 500 hrs even though they're stick and rudder skills are adequate, but were later learned several thousand hrs later. Give me specific situations as I am kind of curious. Thanks

 

[Horizon]

The weather doesn't care how many hours you have. Neither does the airplane's mechanical systems. We'd all like to think that we're prepared to deal with a real emergency, but untill that day happens, we just don't know how we'll truly react when our lives are at stake.

 

[FN FAL]

The weather doesn't care how many hours you have. Neither does the airplane's mechanical systems. We'd all like to think that we're prepared to deal with a real emergency, but untill that day happens, we just don't know how we'll truly react when our lives are at stake.

In other words, you're a low timer or a high timer that's flown the same hour a lot?

 

[IFollowRoads]

From time to time I see other high time pilots preach to low timers about how, in hindsight, little breadth of knowledge and experience they had at say 300 to 1000 hrs for example and how back then they "didn't know what they didn't know." Being a fairly low time pilot myself I am curious as to specific aspects of real world airmanship, judgement and decision making skills that GENERALLY aren't developed among pilots at 500 hrs even though they're stick and rudder skills are adequate, but were later learned several thousand hrs later. Give me specific situations as I am kind of curious. Thanks

I'm not a high time guy, but I can tell you that before I got my commercial ticket I hadn't dealt with any "non normals." But between 300 and 1300+ hours, I've suffered a partial engine failure in a Piper Colt but was able to return to the airport; a bird strike at night that knocked my feet off the floor, it musta been an albatross or something; lost an alternator at night in a Gutless RG; had to pump the gear down in the same Gutless RG on a different flight; lost a governor in the CASA212 and had to shut the engine down; and found some ice one night in a Cessna 206 that left me begging for lower and an airport with an ILS like, now, quicker if able.

So theres the difference. The longer you fly, the more stuff you are going to run into. You work it out and put the experience in the 'ol toolbox for later. Helps keep you from pissin yer pants when something goes wrong. Although if that 206 hadn't started shucking that ice after I passed the OM I woulda ruined the seat cushions prolly...

 

[Horizon]

In other words, you're a low timer or a high timer that's flown the same hour a lot?

Yeah...

 

[AerroMatt]

How many hours do you need to be considered "High Time"? 7000hrs and counting, and I still don't consider myself high time. I learn something on every flight, and more importantly, I realized long ago that I'll never know everything. Just try to glean something from every flight you take, and listen to the advice of the more experienced pilots you meet. That along with a dose of humility will take you a long way in your career.

 

[tracearabians]

I agree with horizon ! This scumbag I flew with out of KMEI claimed to have 13000+ hrs. Big deal ! He's at a point where he thinks he is bullet proof. Will barrel through a line of weather without ever thinking to slow the airplane. I've seen every book, coke, cans of nuts jerked out of the cabinets and his head bleeding from hitting the little rail for the sun visor. People in the back very concerned! His explanation was " I didn't see anything on the radar "! This same numbnuts told me at my interview that he liked it to be so smooth he didn't want the passengers to feel they were moving! WARP SPEED! SPEED BRAKES ARE THE ANSWER TO EVERYTHING !

The weather doesn't care how many hours you have. Neither does the airplane's mechanical systems. We'd all like to think that we're prepared to deal with a real emergency, but untill that day happens, we just don't know how we'll truly react when our lives are at stake.

 

[PacoPollo]

It depends. a 500hr pilot from www.gulfstreamacademy.com will have more experience than the 5000hr ERAU Grad.

 

[AerroMatt]

It depends. a 500hr pilot from www.gulfstreamacademy.com will have more experience than the 5000hr ERAU Grad.

But will either one have any judgement? THAT'S the question!

 

[aussiefly]

It's really a question of the pilots attitude. You cna get some 10,000+ hr guys that are Aholes and think they know it all just like you can get a 500hr guy with the same attitude. They ultimately are both dangerous.

I think the quality of time is really more important. If all youve done is fly circles round the sky for 500 hrs well watch out when something serious happens. But for the guy thats seen serious weather and/or emergencies and lived to tell the tale his survivability increases.

I don't think anyone disputes that someone with 5000 hrs is `likely' a more experienced pilot than a 500hr guy but for some people it might not ring true. Someone, somewhere might have been especially lucky and never had a problem in their 5,000hrs of zapping around the pattern teaching.

IMHO it really comes down to attitude. If you think that your at the point where your high time and experienced, thats when somethings turns up to bite you in the ass. Some of the best captains admit to mistakes and still say they try to learn something new everytime they fly.

Thats my 2 cents.

 

[MauleSkinner]

From time to time I see other high time pilots preach to low timers about how, in hindsight, little breadth of knowledge and experience they had at say 300 to 1000 hrs for example and how back then they "didn't know what they didn't know." Being a fairly low time pilot myself I am curious as to specific aspects of real world airmanship, judgement and decision making skills that GENERALLY aren't developed among pilots at 500 hrs even though they're stick and rudder skills are adequate, but were later learned several thousand hrs later. Give me specific situations as I am kind of curious. Thanks

I guess the most specific example I can come up with is "How important is this flight?"

I used to fly airplanes that were uninsured or in airplanes where I was uninsured. I've gotten SVFR's in VERY questionable conditions. I've flown equipment that I wouldn't now fly. I've flown trips where my "out" was not only something that's not acceptable to me now, but it was my ONLY out.

Most of this was simply because I wanted to fly. I felt I was exercising good judgement, but looking back I feel it was "good judgement" based on invulnerability.

Oh...and I recently got pictures from the investigating inspector

Fly safe!

David

 

[Gorilla]

Oddly enough, low time pilots often have to deal with more mechanicals than high time. Here's why. Low time guys are usually droning about in minimally maintained pistons, while the high-timers are often in turbines that are professionally maintained. Turbine reliability is simply awesome. In 22 years of turbine flying, I've shut exactly one engine down as a precaution, and have had VERY few other problems mechanically.

Weather and international ops is the difference, I think. After enough flying, you'll think you have encountered every possible weather phenomenon, yet every year, you add another to your plate. Stuff like grinding, turbulent rain at a non-radar mountanous airport where the controllers have lied - LIED - to you about the vis so his local boys can operate; CATIII RVR vis so thin vertically that the airplane begins its flare at 40 feet and you are still in the clear above the WX, then the jet autolands into the goo. Within 2 seconds you go from VFR on top, to touchdown into SMGS taxi guidance.

Stuff like North Atlantic Track procedures, working HF with Shanwick or Gander, trying to avoid WX and watching the icebergs pass by; calculating SE driftdown over Greenland so if it happens, the passengers will not run out of O2 at 17,000'.

The experiences keep piling up, and you realize that you didn't know squat before, and you'll never know it all, and the number of things out there that can kill you, and all your passengers, are infinite. Respect grows and you become cautious.

 

[retired guy]

Studies by the U.S. Navy show that the most dangerous time in a pilot`s career are at the 500 hour mark. Why you ask? Because at that point, a pilot has pretty much mastered the ability to fly and is just about seen enough situations (he thinks). He (or she) does not yet have the experience to know when enough is enough. Many years ago, when I was a pilot in a Marine fighter squadron, a friend and fellow pilot busted his a$$ during a fire power demonstration down at Camp Pendelton. The flight was strafing before a group of Grunts. This fellow pulled up and attemped an aileron roll before the crowd, scooped out, tried to reverse his roll. saw that he couldn`t make it and ejected. The seat fired but the `chute didn`t have time to open. Later the accident board computed that he had logged 499.5 hours.

 

[AA717driver]

I think just about all the above responses are right. I thought I was "high time" until mobie and retired guy showed up. I'm just a newbie...

It is about attitude. I look at it as I won't quit learning new things and gaining experience until the last time I park the brakes. I know I get complacent--I'm a lot more nervous flying around in a Cherokee than I am heading out across the N. Atlantic. There are no bean fields to put down into at 30W.

Good topic.TC

 

[blzr]

This is a good thread. I like hearing the "old" guys share their experiences because you just can't learn tht stuff in books. That's why having alot of time usually equates into alot of experience. A 200hr intrument pilot could fly a jet, no problem. It's the decision making that has not been developed at that stage.

 

[RichardRambone]

I think attitude is huge. I am a lower time guy but work with 10,000 hour pilots everyday. They are humbled and realize that these things will kill you and if you are arrogant enough to think otherwise then I don't want to be there when it happens. I was hanging out with a client that had God knows how many hours, ex F-4 pilot in Nam and a recently retired 777 Captain. He was very interested and willing to learn and proactive about this little 182 I brought him. He was interested just as much as a student pilot to the things I was telling him. I think the more cautious you are you hedge your bets even more against Murphy.

 

[Toobdrvr]

Hopefully, by 5,000 hrs one learns how to spell "Judgement"...

...sorry, couldn't resist. Back to my hole...

 

[time builder]

When I was around 300+ hours, I wouldn't fly solo IFR. A couple hundred hours later after flying turboprops with more experienced captains around icing, thunderstorms, etc, I was much more comfortable, and found myself being a much greater asset in the cockpit, particularly with newer captains.
Amazing what a couple hundred hours of quality time will do.
Along the lines of what was said earlier, the most experience with more hours will be along the lines of maintenance and weather scenarios. Not that I'm "there." I'm sure I still have a lot to learn.

Oh, and by the way, if you ever work at an entry-level company flying piston planes that tells you about all the 1200+ hour pilots they've weeded out of training, think about it for a minute, they got last pick, the good ones got jobs flying jets or turboprops.

 

[8inMan]

That last statement was BS.

 

[timeoff]

Oh, and by the way, if you ever work at an entry-level company flying piston planes that tells you about all the 1200+ hour pilots they've weeded out of training, think about it for a minute, they got last pick, the good ones got jobs flying jets or turboprops.

So not true.