Judge Reject UAL Pilot TA!

[AMRCostUnit]

Judge Rejects Deal with United's Pilots

Friday January 7, 11:53 am ET



CHICAGO (Reuters) - A federal bankruptcy judge on Friday rejected an agreement between UAL Corp. (OTC BB:UALAQ.OB - News) and its pilots union that would have let bankrupt United Airlines cut the pilots' pay by 14 percent and terminate their pension plans.

Judge Eugene Wedoff said the agreement would have inappropriately tilted the bankruptcy process.

The judge was expected to hear arguments later on Friday on whether the airline should be allowed to terminate its collective bargaining agreements with its unions.

 

[RichardFitzwell]

Judge Eugene Wedoff is my new hero.

 

[D-Bo]

Judge Eugene Wedoff is my new hero.

Why is that?

 

[michael707767]

What happens now?

 

[On Your Six]

Looks like those UAL wages will need to be updated again on airlinepilotpay.com. The only people making money in this situation are the LAWYERS!!!!!!!!

 

[fam62c]

This judge is out of control.

The judge's reasoning for not permitting the TA to be implemented has to do with the pilot's DB plan elimination being linked to the elimination of the other unionized groups' DB plans. It's pretty common in bankruptcy situations to have unions and creditors insist on conditions similiar to this to be sure they are not singled out and that everybody is sharing the pain. In this case, the pilots are being hurt far worse than the other groups anyway because they are losing a lot more dollars in benefits at the PBGC limits. The ironic part here is that the company has already said they will seek to elimate all the DB plans and you KNOW that this judge will give it the rubber stamp when the time comes; so the TA got shot down because it asks for something that is going to happen anyway.

I'm convinced that this judge doesn't really want TA's, he wants to abrogate the contracts and have the company impose whatever terms they want to. I'm not normally a conpiracy theorist but the entire bankruptcy process in the airline industry looks like it's designed more to eliminate the effectiveness of unions and be a wage control board than to determine whether or not airlines have viable business plans. If they can get everyone to work cheap enough all the airlines can survive. I'm pretty sure that if UAL management went to this judge with a proposal to pay all of the employees minimum wage that the judge would approve it.

 

[fuzzy077]

Sweet

 

[COpilot]

fam, I think you are right.


Look for this guy, and UA to now just throw out everything "kit-n- caboodle". No $500M in stock to help, no C plan, just more cuts across the board for everyone.

 

[tranceport]

My God, I looked outside today and because United was in court the sky was falling, again. "look for this guy to throw everything out 'kit n caboodle'?

Oh Please, how do you know what the judge 'wants'? His direct quotes from todays hearing totally disproves your notion and supports his continued desire for fairness in this process and nothing of the sort you suggest.

I was also surprised to hear this but if you take the time to read his direct quotes from today and put it into context with what he has been saying in court month after month for a loong time, it makes sense. This judge did say a number of months ago that he wanted the company to stop the infighting and stalling and work things out with the unions. Here's a perfect example where the company has NOT reached an agreement with all and further puts 'me too' pressure on work groups.

Does anyone remember when the judge got very upset at a hearing several months ago with mgmt's ineptness with working out compromises? He specifically stated he wanted to see the company fostering workable solutions with all work groups. Here's an example where mgmt. did not deliver and he was right to listen to the IAM and APFA's objections.

this theory of the judge wanting to throw out contracts is nonsense as well. Of course he CAN but it flies in the face of the negotiation process. Why do we as pilots give up so easy? I mean we are really sounding more and more spineless everyday.

You say he wants to set a precedent? I don't think so. Yeh, yeh, he 'can' do that, but he will only after the company tells him they have exhausted all attempts at that....and surprise surprise...they have NOT. It's all coming to a head and these kind of hiccups are not unusual.

After the judge threw out the agreement with the pilots in the morning, the afternoon turned out to be very fruitful for the IAM and APFA negotiations and something is very close. The judge even handed down an extension for one other group that was very close.

Of course the company wanted all their ducks in a row today. It didn't happen. But that does not mean the judge or bk process 'wants' to cancel contracts...they'd much rather see the unions piss it all away so they don't have to be blamed. And as we can all see, time and time again, labor has done that for the most part.

fam62c wrote:

"I'm convinced that this judge doesn't really want TA's, he wants to abrogate the contracts and have the company impose whatever terms they want to. I'm not normally a conpiracy theorist but the entire bankruptcy process in the airline industry looks like it's designed more to eliminate the effectiveness of unions and be a wage control board than to determine whether or not airlines have viable business plans. If they can get everyone to work cheap enough all the airlines can survive. I'm pretty sure that if UAL management went to this judge with a proposal to pay all of the employees minimum wage that the judge would approve it."

with all due respect, can't disagree with you more.

When a company enters bankruptcy as we've seen time and time again over the last few years (and longer), the effectiveness of the union is gone. It isn't the courts that put pressure on labor....it's the alternative to not negotiating with the company that MAY lead to a court outcome that cripples labor. For the overwhelming majority of times in the last few years, the courts and judges have shown time and time again their willingness to give both the company and unions time to work things out. THe whole point of the process is to keep the company working, generating revenue, and hopefully someday paying back the creditors.

Why did the pilots approve cutting off their limbs to save themselves? b/c they had to, the company is bleeding and the alternative is LOSING CONTROL-- NOT necessarily lower wages. If you just think it through, why don't the pilots just say no and take their chances with the judge because at this point in time, they could argue that the company wants to impose totally unrealistic wages relative to their Legacy AND low cost carrier peers and perhaps settle a wage HIGHER than what they agreed to in this second wage cut....but they didn't. They wanted control with other factors such as Quality of life and non monetary issues in the contract. (that were worth more to the pilots than the dollars and sense. Here's where we fail as a group as well...we are so narrowminded on the dollar figure of the job and forget the perks that USED to come with the job...but I digress)

Not trying to pick on you fam but you state:

"if they (the courts) can get everybody to work cheap enough than the companies can survive"? Are you searious? Do you really believe this? It's your perogative but I'll have to urge you to re think this. Please tell me where the labor cuts have created a profitable quarter for someone recently.

Let's review, shall we: It's not cost, it's revenue. Also, there is no company 'plan' to combat overcapacity, low revenue, high fuel costs (no hedging), and high domestic exposure to $89 fares.

Let's say pilots took a 50% pay cut at United instead of just 15%. Do you think the company would miraculously show a similar profit equal to this cut? No, they wouldn't. The Walmartization of airlines has occurred and is working it's way through and there's nothing a union, a court, a judge or a company can do to stop it. (Furthermore, I think if the pilots+mgmt. walked in to court today with a 50% pay cut and said: we want other work groups to do the same, Judge Wiedoff would have thrown it out as well. My opinion, yours may be different)

Once again, I'm talking to a wall here.

Wish all the best to all the employees everywhere.