Joint CMR/ASA MEC Resolution

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: Sore like an Eagle...

And I reckon you're right but to extrapolate your thought to its logical conclusion, the combined DAL/CMR/ASA list would be even more of a force for management to content with so why does the DMEC have no interest in that? Why the double standard?

Comair is more operationally integrated with Delta and ASA is more operationally integrated with Delta than Comair is operationally integrated with ASA so why is the Chairman of the Delta MEC endorsing a merger of two paper airlines which accomplishes essentially nothing? Any ideas?

It's a snark hunt. Both "managements" have now said they have no authority to even discuss it. The Comair and ASA pilots would have to pay dearly to pull off a merger and they would be in no better shape than Eagle is now. The whipsaw would still continue because ALPA refuses to let the CMR/ASA MECs bargain with their real employer. The Delta pilots simply cannot permit ASA and/or Comair to encroach on "their" scope. There's a lot of dust being churned up at Comair and ASA over this right now but interestingly enough, there's no associated movement with it.

Hey batter batter batter batter, it's a diversion. A merger between CMR/ASA does nothing to address the DFR issues the lawsuit raises but it gets the pilots to take their eye off the ball. The litigation has entered the discovery phase and ALPA will be compelled by the courts to produce some incriminating documents soon. Standby for more colorful subterfuge from ALPA. Your union dues at work.

More rhetoric from Surplus and little cessna. Just because you two say that CMR and ASA each have more operational integration with Delta more than they do each other does not make it so. In fact, I beg to differ. I have seen first hand parts intertwined with each others companies at an overnight where there is both an ASA jet and a Comair jet parked there. Kinda hard to do that with a Delta MD80. Our real employers are in fact Comair and ASA. They are tangible companies. Period. A seniority list integration between the two would increase bargaining power, period.

Surplus is also wrong with regards to the NMB. A petition would accomplish a very important task, one which he neglects to point out as it does not further his cause. Comair and ASa on strike at the same time would effectively shut this company down, and WOULD be a force to reckon with. Delta does not have enough non-wholly owneds in order to preclude a company wide disaster. While he supports his MEC on the issue of not hiring pilots without seniority resignation--specifically Delta pilots--he does not with respect to a single list? Are they wise or aren't they?? I notice you have honed in on the non-authority issue with regard to management's flat out rejection of the offer. Laughable at best. The company doesn't want Comair and ASA combined let alone the three entities of CMR ASA and DAL. Interestingly enough, some of Surplus's own thoughts as to why a ASA/CMR list merger would be ineffective are the very same ones the Delta pilots have been saying would make a three way ineffective. Laughable.

To sum up, it's too little too late. Our representation blew it from the start with the attitudes such as you see from Surplus and the Cessna dude. Blame your leadership folks. they brought you here. tell them you want a 1:1 flow with the Delta guys. Flow up AND flush down. It's all they will accept. Surplus says it will only benefit the senior. Of course it will--at first. That is what seniority is all about. The junior will get their turn when it is their time. There will be no list integrations--management does not want it, DAL pilots do not want it. The court case is hinging on 1 count now. Tell your reps to flow. Industry leading flow--it can work, unless you are an old dog who can't learn new tricks.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[N2264J]

Re: Sore like an Eagle...

Just because you two say that CMR and ASA each have more operational integration with Delta more than they do each other does not make it so. In fact, I beg to differ. I have seen first hand parts intertwined with each others companies at an overnight where there is both an ASA jet and a Comair jet parked there...Our real employers are in fact Comair and ASA. They are tangible companies. Period.

--a concerned regional pilot

You fascinate me in a concerned and regional way.

One measure of "integration" is the items the operations share or have in common. Here are some of the key items ASA and Comair do not have in common with each other but do have in common with Delta Air Lines:

-timetables
-advertising
-reservation system
-ticket stock
-public image
-aircraft paint schemes
-corporate Board of Directors
-corporate stock
-administrative functions (marketing for example)

Delta management has gone to great lengths to emphasize to the financial community the economic benefits and strategic importance of integrating the smaller jets into its operation.

"Delta wants to develop an airline network that takes passengers from anywhere to everywhere. A quickly emerging component of that access is Delta's use of regional jets...But let me just say that RJs are the fastest growing segment of the aviation market-and Delta is the largest RJ operator in the world."
Leo Mullin, Industry Leadership Meeting, December 9, 1999

"But what is very interesting about this segment's explosive ASM growth, currently around 20 percent, is the root cause of the growth-and that root cause in a new aircraft type with incredible potential to change the entire aviation landscape-that's the regional jet or RJ. You'll hear us talk a lot more about these new jet wonders during this conference."
Leo Mullin, 2000 Investor's Conference, March 30, 2000

"The integration of Comair and ASA into the Delta network has had a significant and positive impact on our network plan. It [the RJ] has allowed us to better match system capacity with demand, it will enable the re-allocation of mainline aircraft and to increase point to point service in new geographic regions."
Ed West, CFO Delta Air Lines, 4th Quarter 2000 Earnings Conference call

"Our growth strategy depends on the complementary benefits realized from each of our interdependent and integrated product lines."
Fred Reid, COO Delta Air Lines: "Regional Jets and the Delta Network: A Special Report" January 24, 2000

Notwithstanding the fact that all these statements were made before you became an airline pilot, (just curious: do you think of yourself as a real airline pilot?) the obvious question is: If management says the operations of Delta/Comair/ASA are integrated, what does ALPA gain by asserting they are not?

Since the union's charter is collective bargaining, what does ALPA, as a union, gain by keeping pilot groups at the same company segregated by aircraft types?

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: Re: Sore like an Eagle...

You fascinate me in a concerned and regional way.

One measure of "integration" is the items the operations share or have in common. Here are some of the key items ASA and Comair do not have in common with each other but do have in common with Delta Air Lines:

-timetables
-advertising
-reservation system
-ticket stock
-public image
-aircraft paint schemes
-corporate Board of Directors
-corporate stock
-administrative functions (marketing for example)



Since the union's charter is collective bargaining, what does ALPA, as a union, gain by keeping pilot groups at the same company segregated by aircraft types?

You are wrong, Comair and ASa all have those things in common as well. Additionally, a 50 seater special section has and will continue to be substituted for a concelled 50 seater from the other airline. Aircraft parts are intertwined, CMR connects with ASA in DFW and ATL, and NYC, and up till recently in CVG. None of the airlines shares a dispatch, crew scheduling, MTX, operating certificate, load closeout system, IOW things which have been said before and show true operational integration. DAL has an integrated schedule with Air France, CAL, NWAC, Alitalia, etc, maybe they should merge. Operational integration is a DEAD END, at least for now. Deal with it and push for the flow through. With it the flush down. You don't get something for nothing.

Goals of ALPA:
B. OBJECTIVES

(1) To provide representation for all members of the airline piloting profession; to promote the interests of that profession; and to safeguard the rights, individually and collectively, of its members.

(2) To safeguard, with ceaseless vigilance, the safety of scheduled air transportation in recognition of the high degree of public trust, confidence, and responsibility placed on the members.

(3) To further scheduling with safety in any practical manner.

(4) To advance and promote the professional image of the airline pilot in the business and educational communities, and with the public at large.

(5) To establish and exercise the right of collective bargaining for the purposes of making and maintaining employment agreements covering rates of pay, rules, and working conditions for the members of the Association, and to settle promptly disputes and grievances which may arise between such members and their employers.

(6) To establish fair rates of compensation, maximum hours of employment, and uniform principles of seniority for members of the Association, and to seek the adoption and perpetuation thereof.

(7) To obtain suitable health, retirement, and disability benefits for all members of the Association through legislation, collective bargaining, and other means.

(8) To disseminate news in any manner to keep Association members alert and well informed in all matters relating to their profession.

(9) To provide a means for participation by members of the Association in resolution of issues that affect the piloting profession.

(10) To urge, support, and sponsor the passage of legislation and regulations affecting members of the Association which will improve, protect, and increase the safety of their working conditions or otherwise advance their professional interests.

(11) To develop, administer, and make available to members of the Association services that will provide protection and/or assistance in unforeseen circumstances which may jeopardize their continued employment in the piloting profession.

(12) To develop, administer and make available to members of the Association benefit programs designed to satisfy specific needs not adequately provided for by their respective employers.

(13) To participate in or sponsor research in aviation-related matters that will contribute to the advancement of the airline piloting profession.

(14) To participate in appropriate efforts to preserve, document, and memorialize noteworthy events and achievements in aviation history.

(15) To provide suitable and effective support services to the Association's officers, representatives, and staff, and to its governing bodies and technical committees.

(16) To foster an environment that encourages respect for the dignity, the rights, and the human concerns of all members and employees of the Association, and to provide motivation for those individuals to strive for the best of which they are capable.



Mission statement:

Mission Statement: The mission of the Air Line Pilots Association is to promote and champion all aspects of aviation safety throughout all segments of the aviation community; to represent, in both specific and general respects, the collective interests of all pilots in commercial aviation; to assist in collective bargaining activities on behalf of all pilots represented by the Association; to promote the health and welfare of the members of the Association before all governmental agencies; to be a strong, forceful advocate of the airline piloting profession, through all forms of media, and with the public at large; and to be the ultimate guardian and defender of the rights and privileges of the professional pilots who are members of the Association.
--ALPA Board of Directors, October 1992


I don't read anything about ALPA's charter being collective bargaining. I do read about ALPA ASSISTING in the collective bargaining. I also read, but did not quote, how individual MECs are responsible for negotiating their own agreements, whilst ALPA is responsible for protecting the collective interest of ALL pilots in commercial aviation. Interesting, it's all there, son,for you to read. I suggest you do. I also suggest that we find a way to work with the Delta pilots, quick.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[N2264J]

Re: Sore like an Eagle...

You are wrong, Comair and ASa all have those things in common as well.

Of course they do, they're all in common with Delta. Do you
think that's a Comair paint job? An ASA livery?

I don't read anything about ALPA's charter being collective bargaining...

Well, let me help you out with that.

"Mission Statement: The mission of the Air Line Pilots Association is...to represent, in both specific and general respects, the collective interests of all pilots in commercial aviation..."

Collective (ka lek' tiv), adj 1. formed by collection. 2. forming a whole; combined: the collective assets of a corporation. 3. of or characteristic of a group of individuals taken together: the collective wishes of the membership.

Goals of ALPA:
B. OBJECTIVES

(1) "To provide representation for all members of the airline piloting profession; to promote the interests of that profession; and to safeguard the rights, individually and collectively, of its members."

(5) "To establish and exercise the right of collective bargaining for the purposes of making and maintaining employment agreements covering rates of pay, rules, and working conditions for the members of the Association, and to settle promptly disputes and grievances which may arise between such members and their employers."

I also read, but did not quote, how individual MECs are responsible for negotiating their own agreements...

The MEC is an artificial construct of ALPA. ALPA is the bargaining agent under the Railway Labor Act. A contract isn't a contract unless it has the signiture of the President of ALPA on it, not the MEC Chairman or the Negotiating Committee Chairman, the President of the Association has to sign it. Our contract is between ALPA and the company, not the MEC and the company. It's on the first page of the agreement.

Interesting, it's all there, son,for you to read. I suggest you do. I also suggest that we find a way to work with the Delta pilots, quick.

--a concerned regional pilot

Tell me - do you think of yourself as a real airline pilot now or does that only occur the day you're handling the "big iron?"
Is your self esteem based on the size of your fuselage?

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: Re: Sore like an Eagle...

Of course they do, they're all in common with Delta. Do you
think that's a Comair paint job? An ASA livery?



Well, let me help you out with that.

"Mission Statement: The mission of the Air Line Pilots Association is...to represent, in both specific and general respects, the collective interests of all pilots in commercial aviation..."

Collective (ka lek' tiv), adj 1. formed by collection. 2. forming a whole; combined: the collective assets of a corporation. 3. of or characteristic of a group of individuals taken together: the collective wishes of the membership.

Goals of ALPA:
B. OBJECTIVES

(1) "To provide representation for all members of the airline piloting profession; to promote the interests of that profession; and to safeguard the rights, individually and collectively, of its members."

(5) "To establish and exercise the right of collective bargaining for the purposes of making and maintaining employment agreements covering rates of pay, rules, and working conditions for the members of the Association, and to settle promptly disputes and grievances which may arise between such members and their employers."




The MEC is an artificial construct of ALPA. ALPA is the bargaining agent under the Railway Labor Act. A contract isn't a contract unless it has the signiture of the President of ALPA on it, not the MEC Chairman or the Negotiating Committee Chairman, the President of the Association has to sign it. Our contract is between ALPA and the company, not the MEC and the company. It's on the first page of the agreement.



Tell me - do you think of yourself as a real airline pilot now or does that only occur the day you're handling the "big iron?"
Is your self esteem based on the size of your fuselage?

I notice that you quote the same passages I did. One has to do with collective safety, which has nothing to do with bargaining. The other sets the operation of collective bargaining into motion. Collective bargaining is a term often misunderstood. Collective bargaining is a process--not a definitive term. You also notice that said paragraph contains the phrase "such members and their employers." Your employer is Comair or ASA or Delta. While many like to glaze over this and rather focus on their "true" employer, that makes it no less germane. It is a loser argument, made by losers.

There is nothing artificial about the MEC construct. It is quite real, and necessary. One could make the case that if ALPA bargained for all three groups, as well, as United, USAir, NWA, etc, the quality of life at Comair would go down substantially. Collective bargaining is a group term within a company--as in ALPA negotiates for the Comair pilots collectively. Although you try and spin it into your personal agenda, as do others, they and you know you are wrong deep down. Read the info on the ALPA main page--it's all there, and very real.

I urge all again to contact your reps and push for industry leading flow. Work with, not against, the Delta pilots or ou doom will approach quickly.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[N2264J]

Re: Sore like an Eagle...

There is nothing artificial about the MEC construct.

You could be right about this. Since you never get anything right, I'm going to give it to you because that's the kind of magnanimous guy I am.

"Artificial construct" may have been a poor choice of words on my part. The MEC is like a hologram - a 3 dimensional virtual projection of ALPA on the property. A better phrase may be "virtual construct" of ALPA. At any rate, the MEC is not autonomous - ALPA is the bargaining agent.

I urge all again to contact your reps and push for industry leading flow. Work with, not against, the Delta pilots or ou doom will approach quickly.

--a concerned regional pilot

Historically, flow through agreements have been offered to "regional" or "commuter" pilots by their mainline counterparts when it is politically expedient to do so. A flow though, by definition, makes the determination that one type of airline pilot is professionally inferior or subordinate to another. The seniority system is replaced with an inferiority system.

It is hardly a coincidence that those regionals that have a flow though are also completely scoped out by their mainline "brothers."

Flow though doesn't fix the whipsaw problem. As long as there is more than one pilot group on a property, the problem remains.

The current attitudes within ALPA that foster flow though plans ignore the fact that the primary beneficiaries of such agreements are 1) management who use the flow though carrot to justify sub-standard working conditions at the "regional" and 2) the mainline pilots who extract political concessions from their "regional" counterparts in exchange for their [mainline] consent.

I happen to like the "poison pill" aspect of our MECs proposal to management recently, that being: Since Delta wants to cut costs, merge CMR and ASA - that should save some money. I think that was politically astute and put the concessionary ball back in management's court. What troubles me is why the Delta MEC is getting involved. If Comair and ASA are separate companies as the Delta pilots have asserted;
- why should Capt Malone be consulted?
- why is his blessing necessary?
- and why is he taking this to the DMEC?

From ALPA fast read:
"Comair and ASA MEC chairmen, Capts. J.C. Lawson and Bob Arnold, then consulted with the Delta MEC chairman, Capt. John Malone, who indicated support for the two MECs' position. Capt. Malone also stated he intends to bring the consolidation issue to the attention of the Delta MEC at the next opportunity."

In Orwell's "Animal Farm," the ones in power maintained that: "Some animals are more equal than others." If flow thoughs are a viable solution to the problems wrought by integrating airlines, then we would see them utilized by ALPA's politically powerful members when their airlines become acquisition targets. Obviously flow throughs are not, and will never be, an adequate substitute for the proper integration of pilot seniority lists.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

From li''l Cessna

You could be right about this. Since you never get anything right, I'm going to give it to you because that's the kind of magnanimous guy I am.

Ask Surplus how often I am right. Pretty much batting 100%.

A flow though, by definition, makes the determination that one type of airline pilot is professionally inferior or subordinate to another.

Who's definition? Yours? I think not. Like it or not, our inferiority lies in our contract as compared to the Delta pilot's contract. Obviously you have the same ego problem as Surplus in that you need to be "created as an equal". You are not an equal. You make a drastically inferior compensation package. A flow through would allow you to graduate to the higher compensation package when it is your turn.

Flow though doesn't fix the whipsaw problem. As long as there is more than one pilot group on a property, the problem remains.

Sure it does. In fact, your buddy Surplus advocates just such an idea. He says we should merge the lists and keep the companies seperate. this is really nothing more than a flow through.

The current attitudes within ALPA that foster flow though plans ignore the fact that the primary beneficiaries of such agreements are 1) management who use the flow though carrot to justify sub-standard working conditions at the "regional" and 2) the mainline pilots who extract political concessions from their "regional" counterparts in exchange for their [mainline] consent.

Management does not need a carrot to justify sub-standard working conditions. They have plenty of pilots willing to do just about anything to pilot a jet. As far as extracting political concessions, I will gladly give them up if I have people the likes of John Malone negotiating for me. The man is kick a$$. The only people who don't like him are the senior contingent at ASA/CMR, because he does not cave to their BS.

Obviously flow throughs are not, and will never be, an adequate substitute for the proper integration of pilot seniority lists.

I like this quote, it reflects the ignorance of the senior pilots at CMR who think the opening position of a negotiation should be the end result. Foolish, foolish boy. I agree that in utopia a merged list is the answer. This ain't utopia, and we have no leverage.

Flow through with adequate protection, it's the reasonable and only answer. Get over yourself senior babies.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[surplus1]

From li''l Cessna

Ask Surplus how often I am right. Pretty much batting 100%.

If Surplus1 were asked, he would say that you are as "right" as you think you are. It is irrelevant if others do not share your lofty opinion of self. You know that you are right, you know that you are batting 100%. It follows therefore, that you are. That should be enough for the rest of us.

Thanks for making me smile.

 

[Tim47SIP]

scopeCMRandASA

A legend in his own mind!

Makes me laugh too! Thanks for the humerous insights.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

If Surplus1 were asked, he would say that you are as "right" as you think you are. It is irrelevant if others do not share your lofty opinion of self. You know that you are right, you know that you are batting 100%. It follows therefore, that you are. That should be enough for the rest of us.

Thanks for making me smile.

You're welcome, I notice that you don't refute, you merely attempt diversion. Interesting, I guess my remarks were another dent in your ego. You want to go tit for tat in our debating history and reveal all of your inaccuracies?

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[N2264J]

Re: Sore like an Eagle

Ask Surplus how often I am right. Pretty much batting 100%.

--a concerned regional pilot

A remarkable claim considering your assertion earlier in this thread that collective bargaining is not part of a union's charter while proceeding to post the applicable portion of ALPA's Constitution and By-laws which says otherwise.

Sometimes, dialogue is just not possible.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: Re: Sore like an Eagle

A remarkable claim considering your assertion earlier in this thread that collective bargaining is not part of a union's charter while proceeding to post the applicable portion of ALPA's Constitution and By-laws which says otherwise.

Sometimes, dialogue is just not possible.

You misunderstand, what I said is that your definition of collective bargaining is not what is defined in the By-laws and Constitution of ALPA.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[surplus1]

You want to go tit for tat in our debating history and reveal all of your inaccuracies?

--a concerned regional pilot

No thanks. I prefer to let the membership of the forum be the judge.

They already know what I have said and what you have said. I respect their judgment. Go blow your own horn (again).

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

No thanks. I prefer to let the membership of the forum be the judge.

They already know what I have said and what you have said. I respect their judgment. Go blow your own horn (again).

Good idea. Let the "unbiased forum" be the judge. Laughable. Gotta give you credit points for spin though. Get some therapy for that ego man.

--a concerned regional pilot