JFK GDP for Wind (310/11)

geardown

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Please explain to me why the hell there is a 45 min GDP for 11 knots of wind right down the parallel runways.

If you all are upset about pay and staffing ( completely understandable) then speak up, but don't indefinately come to work and shutdown NYC day in and day out.

The airlines are the ones getting penalized for delays in New York. I don't think the government is smart enough to even consider ATC morale and staffing as an issue in the equation.

Airline employees and the public would be behind you all if the true issues were just brought out in the open.

Rant over
 

dickburns

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Most GDPs are out of central flow and TMU in washington.

Secondly, isn't it ALREADY out in the open about how badly the controllers got scr3wed on pay, etc? How much more can they do to get it in the open? And if the public and airlines get behind them what will that help? It's quite obvious NATCA isn't making much progress and the FAA isn't willing to budge. Controller pay isn't gonna change anytime soon.
 

a320drivr

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Most GDPs are out of central flow and TMU in washington.

Secondly, isn't it ALREADY out in the open about how badly the controllers got scr3wed on pay, etc? How much more can they do to get it in the open? And if the public and airlines get behind them what will that help? It's quite obvious NATCA isn't making much progress and the FAA isn't willing to budge. Controller pay isn't gonna change anytime soon.
Thank Mr. Foo Man Chew for that. Our current boss.
 

geardown

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Flight crews know what is going on but the traveling public has no clue. A public campaign during an election year would go a long way towards putting political pressure on the FAA to fix the problem. If there was a public outcry for the government to do something then the airlines could get behind it and the ATA would have a little more of a voice. The choice is up to NATCA to initiate it or not. The passive agressive behavior ATC is exhibiting now will only bury the airlines before it accomplishes anything useful for the controllers. There won't be a need for any more staffing as demand is continually reduced.

and yeah Chew man is to blame.
 

Lrjtcaptain

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Please explain to me why the hell there is a 45 min GDP for 11 knots of wind right down the parallel runways.

If you all are upset about pay and staffing ( completely understandable) then speak up, but don't indefinately come to work and shutdown NYC day in and day out.

The airlines are the ones getting penalized for delays in New York. I don't think the government is smart enough to even consider ATC morale and staffing as an issue in the equation.

Airline employees and the public would be behind you all if the true issues were just brought out in the open.

Rant over
That is a bold statement to make there. Controllers intentionally forcing a slow down. I think not. Could other factors have been involved, say a runway closed temporarily, airspace restrictions such as AFP's in effect for an already saturated sky enroute the North East, and a number of other issues that decrease the arrival rates to major airports?

Not a day goes by I don't goto work and there is an AFP in effect for something, EDCTS to these airports, ESP restrictions to these airports.

Im going to go out on a limb and tell you why there is overcrowding in the sky, it has nothing to do with controllers ability to handle the traffic. There are now 2 to 3 RJ's doing the work for 1 major. There are major lull's in activity then a heavy push and a heavy arrival. I see it day in and day out at ORD. Ill steadily have 2 or 3 every minute ready to taxi and then bam i've got 10 on my board ready to taxi, and 10 more behind them and 10 more behind them. The airlines fly when the public wants them to fly and the ideal times, and that is why somedays there are no taxi delays and the next time you fly out your are number 30 in line.

The arrival rates are pretty much cast in stone depending on what runways are available and other factors such as weather and configurations.

To say that the EDCTs must have been caused due to controllers is a farce. Maybe you should step back and look at the system as a whole. Lots of planes, and not enough concrete to put them on, not enough gates available at the destinations.
 

atcloser

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geardown, you obviously don't have all the information you need, and guessing which airline you fly for, i'm surprised you don't understand this issue.

that same GDP is in almost every single day at JFK, no matter what the wind, weather, staffing, or traffic volumes. maybe you don't know this, but the GDP goes in because certain airline(s) at JFK (who will remain nameless but involve a color), demand every day that the FAA have 2 departure runways (22R/31L or 4L/31L). this is understandable, as departure delays are awful at JFK. however, 22L and 4R are the absolute worst runways for arrivals. the acceptance rate for 4L or 22L is far short of the 13's/22 or 31's. thus, to compensate for the limited arrivals per hour to a SINGLE arrival runway from 4pm-11pm, the FAA puts in the GDP. without the GDP or a major Miles in Trail restriction, the amount of airborne holding generally results in diversion after diversion.

additionally, on this date in question, JFK was forced to use a single arrival runway (31R) during peak periods of traffic in the afternoon to favor departures on 31L. result? GDP!

this is what the "customers" want. why the GDP was attributed to wind? i'll let you figure that one out buddy...

yes, controller morale is low, but controllers are pretty much completely left out of this equation.

trust me.
 
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NSW

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that same GDP is in almost every single day at JFK, no matter what the wind, weather, staffing, or traffic volumes. maybe you don't know this, but the GDP goes in because certain airline(s) at JFK (who will remain nameless but involve a color), demand every day that the FAA have 2 departure runways (22R/31L or 4L/31L). this is understandable, as departure delays are awful at JFK.
Incorrect - there's an airline at JFK that demands they favor departures over arrivals, but it's not who you're saying it is. Every day JFK sets up two departure runways at 5pm, just before the big international push. I think it's kind of foolish to say they are doing that to benefit an airline that doesn't even fly to Europe, don't you?

There is a certain airline at JFK demanding this setup. I'll let them remain nameless too but they involve a Greek letter.

The call the GDP for "Volume" anytime the winds allow the "optimal" configurations (13s or 31s plus 22L during the day - that's two arrival runways and one departure - then 22s and 31L in the evening for two departures and one arrival.)

Anytime they can't use those runways but it's still VMC, they call it "winds."

The controllers forced certain work rules at JFK after a couple of "deals" happened and they took them to the media a few months back. Ever since then, ATCSCC has put out a GDP for JFK daily. That's not the fault of any airline, and I doubt it's Chew's fault (neither EWR nor any other airport has this kind of problem).

It sure is easier to point fingers though, isn't it?

Either way, the summer is over so maybe those of us dealing with JFK daily will get a breather.
 

J32driver

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ATCloser...
I've always wondered... during the afternoon push that sets JFK up on 31L departures and 31R arrivals... why not setup depart 31L, KK and run intersecting arrivals to 31R and 4R/22L?

It just seems like JFK has so much capacity that it refuses to use. There has to be other setups that allow higher arrival and departure rates.

Taxied out a couple Saturdays ago... 11am, crystal clear all over the east coast, calm winds, light traffic... and JFK was departing 1 airplane every 4-5 minutes (I hacked the clock to verify). When we finally did launch out over RBV, we were the only ariplane in the sky... cleared direct any where you want to go once talking to Wash. I just can't think of a reason for that type of service.
 

atcloser

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J32driver,

I don't see land 31R and 22L/4R as an option because of the extreme complexity in the operation. Gaps would have to be built in for each 22l/4R arrival to the 31R flow, and during the arrival pushes that would be extremely difficult. Additionally, airspace constraints (especially 4R/31R) would make that operation even more difficult. With the fiasco we now deal with 13L/22L, landing 31R and 22L would be even more of a fiasco.

I don't work at JFK tower so I cannot answer as to why there were 4 minute gaps between departures that day. I do not agree that JFK has a lot of unused capacity, although again, I cannot speak for what the actual airport does. I can speak that the proximity to LGA and EWR hampers any possibility of new runway configurations in terms of airspace allocation.
 

J32driver

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Thanks ATCloser...

I know that as a pilot, I don't get the big picture all the time. Sometimes... the big picture and what we see as reality don't come close to jiving. Maybe someday that'll change.
 
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