JetBlue, We will wait and see

[Dizel8]

lowecure says: "They will bide their time in the next 6 months, and after the issue has had time to settle, will re-evaluate those employees that are still upset."

I believe that you are very wrong. If they were to do that, I feel, that it would take away the spirit that is present at jetblue. That would have a detrimental effect on the service provided the passenger and hence the bottom line.

I feel, that you have a tendency to speak like a reclusive accountant, aka bean counter and appear to have little understanding of what motivates people. Fear and threats are not a very good motivator, where as praise and honesty is.

Your much beloved 190 is only a tool to provide great service, but in itself, it would be about worthless, if it is not staffed by great people, who tries their hardest to give the customer a great product.

You seem to have taken a page from the USAir mangement book of how to make friends and influence people, but you also should be aware of the potential consequences.

Human capital is very much part of the equation, airplanes do not fly themselves, it takes a larger number of people to make for a seamless experience. If even one feels mistreated, it has the potential of ruining the experience, in which case, the carrier may lose business.
I read someplace, that it takes a long time to gain a customer, but a very short time to lose one. I believe this to be true.

So back to your statement, I personally feel, that jetblue management is much smarter than to employ your tactics.

 

[cgmason1]

Dizel8 Excellent post.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[lowecur]

lowecur says: "They will bide their time in the next 6 months, and after the issue has had time to settle, will re-evaluate those employees that are still upset."

I believe that you are very wrong. OK. If they were to do that, I feel, that it would take away the spirit at that is present at jetblue. Well, this is just my opinion. Certainly, whatever their thoughts are about the issue of loyalty will play out over the next 6 months. If mgt caves on this issue, what will happen the next time employees don't care for a decision? If they do nothing and hope it goes away, will it? That would have a detrimental effect on the service provided the passenger and hence the bottom line.

I feel, that you have a tendency to speak like a reclusive accountant, aka bean counter and appear to have little understanding of what motivates people. Spare the rod, spoil the child. Fear and threats are not a very good motivator, where as praise and honesty is. I couldn't have said it better myself, but I'm only one person making an interpretation. In the end, sometimes nothing said at all is plenty.

Your much beloved 190 is only a tool to provide great service, but in itself, it would be about worthless, if it is not staffed by great people, who tries their hardest to give the customer a great product. Failure to compute###$>.

You seem to have taken a page from the USAir mangement book of how to make friends and influence people, but you also should be aware of the potential consequences. I find it amusing that in this environment, that the powerplay is still on. You have every legacy carrier in dire straits because of a combination of poor mgt, and employee greed(yes, even without 9/11). When you finally have a few successful LCC's with great mgt, you get a group of employees that want to screw if up because they still don't understand the principal of a 10-15% profit margin. The good of the profession again begins to take precedent over the good of company. These hardcore "airline pilot" professionals that are so quick to condem mgt, are not interested in seeing how the company will do with this rate structure. They are more interested in the profession. It's just my opinion and mine only, that they should be jettisoned if they haven't settled down in 6 months.

Human capital is very much part of the equations, airplanes do not fly themselves, it takes a larger number of people to make for a seamless experience. If even one feels mistreated, it has the potential of ruining your experience, in which case, the carrier may lose business. I read someplace, that it takes a long time to gain a customer, but a very short time to lose one. I believe this to be true. All great points.

So back to your statement, I personally feel, that jetblue management is much smarter than to employ your tactics. So you believe mgt will do nothing, and just let things settle. You also think that if employees are fired as their 5 yr review comes up, this would certainly start a war within the company. Boy, if that were the case, I'd hate to work in Human Resources. You'd be afraid to let anyone go. You could be right, but I wouldn't want to be the one to find out. If I read you right, you also think the 190 & 320 rates will be raised eventually if profit warrants. Correct me if I'm wrong.

.....

 

[Dizel8]

Of course you have a "Failure to compute###$>", because all you think is dollars and cents. The notion that the service industry depends upon people who are happy in their position and, as petrifying as that may be to you, compensation is part of the overall scheme.

It is not a question of power play, it is a question of openess and managing expectations.

While things are slowly being worked out, it would have been nice, if the company came out with their reasoning for these numbers. Who were we compared to, how do we stack up in total compensation, what is the expected CASM-RASM etc?

Further, without going too deep into it, the company could have done better with managing expectations, but since they may have erred in that respect, the backlash is multiplied.

No, the vast majority at jetblue does not set their own short term personal gain above the airline, this is a partnership in many ways. Labor relations in general are great, which is why this is indeed a big challenge, both to the employee and the company. We are going into uncharted territory and it will really be the first big test between the company and the crewmembers.

If the company decides to let people go, for no other reason that they, in adherence with the open door policy, speak their opinion, then yes, I would bet you, that the jetblue pilots will seek representation sooner rather than later. However, the great thing is, that I truly doubt the company will do this, as a matter of fact, I would bet you on that too.

Many managers surround themselves with "yes men." People who never speak up and who makes the manager feel like he is always doing the right thing. Sure, it would be nice if that was the case, but we all step on the "unit" now and then. When we do, hopefully someone will be honest enough to speak their mind, but that wil only happen, if there is an open dialogue and no fear of retribution. So you, wanting to fire anyone who does not agree with you, show lack of leadership ability. Interestingly enough, pilots of multi crew airplanes deals with open dialogue on a daily basis, since the partnership between the crewmembers is a very important one and critical to safety. (Of course, this is not limited to just the pilots. To run a safe effective airline, it involves the concentrated effort and dialogue between all personnel from A-Z.)

Yes, I think the company will do the right thing. Either they will justify the rates and explain the reasoning to such a point that the pilots understands them or they will reevaluate them. Were they to take the first route, I certainly believe, that they will be honest and once the airplane has proven itself, they will ensure a happy outcome for all involved.

Sadly, I am left with the notion, that you consider employees to be nothing more than a neccesary evil, whose wages are best left at minimun to satisfy the stockholders, as well as the greed of management. Is it better to achieve a profit margin of 50% over 5 years or 5% over 50 years?

Shortly before 9/11, the company introduced a pay scale that offered a 32% raise to the pilots. Of course, the sad events of 9/11 took place and plenty of pilots sent emails to the effect, that they would gladly forego the raise, due to this horrible event, in the hopes that it would make the company weather the storm. A short time there after, the company, having seen the loads and considered the situation, issued the raise, including retro pay. I do not believe, that those gestures went unnoticed by the company nor the pilots.

I just recently read "Flying High", a book you may have access to. It would be a good read for you, since it does give you a little bit of insight into what Neelman thinks about his employees. Now, I am sure there will be plenty of naysayers on this board, however, having worked for the man for close to five years, I can honestly say, that I find him to be an honest, forthright person and that Dave Barger is likewise.

I truly think, that in the history of jetblue, that the current issues will end up being a mere blip on the horizon, despite how onerous it may seem at present!

 

[lowecur]

Dizel

Nice reply.

Blind loyalty is not what I am speaking about. It's okay to question mgt, as long as it's done without the vailed threats seen on this board. The 6 month cooling off period will allow mgt to better assess the situation, and determine if these employees are truly counterproductive to the company.

"Yes, I think the company will do the right thing. Either they will justify the rates and explain the reasoning to such a point that the pilots understands them or they will reevaluate them. Were they to take the first route, I certainly believe, that they will be honest and once the airplane has proven itself, they will ensure a happy outcome for all involved.

I would think that the pocket sessions contained some dialogue along these lines. It's hard to believe there wasn't a "point/counterpoint" exchange in these sessions, where mgt didn't justify their thoughts.

Sadly, I am left with the notion, that you consider employees to be nothing more than a neccesary evil, whose wages are best left at minimun to satisfy the stockholders, as well as the greed of management. Is it better to achieve a profit margin of 50% over 5 years or 5% over 50 years?

That's hardly the case. But I'm not afraid to speak my mind. I have seen the results when employees place the "profession" ahead of the company. The solution obviously falls somewhere in between.

I just recently read "Flying High", a book you may have access to. It would be a good read for you, since it does give you a little bit of insight into what Neelman thinks about his employees. Now, I am sure there will be plenty of naysayers on this board, however, having worked for the man for close to five years, I can honestly say, that I find him to be an honest, forthright person and that Dave Barger is likewise.

I'm sure it is, and the future of your company will be determined by the ability of employees to let mgt manage.

 

[jetblue320]

Thank you

Lowecur,

Thank you for changing your formatting. Your posts are much easier to read in this form than the other way you were/are using. I don't think anyone cares about the color but it was hard to differentiate between a quote and your text.

C yaaa

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

Lowecur,

Is your name Frank, Johnny, or are you perhaps a member of the CAL Flight ops management team? You sure seem like an MBA bean counter type with no clue about managing people. Just in case you can't figure out why JBLU pilots and the industry as a whole might be a little PO'd about the proposed 190 rates, here's a little comparison fo similar sized aircraft throughout the industry (eff. 2005):

12 yr. CA rates (737-500, DC-9, CRJ-700, E-190):

NWA $191
SWA $188
CAL $158 (2001 rate)
Airtran $153
UAL $147 (in Ch.11)
Horizon $99
Comair $98
JBLU $89!!!!!!!!!

A PROFITABLE major airline paying pilots 10% less than profitable "regionals" do to fly aircraft with 30% less revenue potential is criminal. It would create a C scale at JBLU and a clear division between the "haves" and "have nots", negatively impacting morale and making unionization a certainty as more people end up on the 190 and realize they could have gone to MESA or CHQ if they wanted to work for slave wages. Perhaps if robots flew planes the Lowecur philosophy of management would make sense.....

 

[lowecur]

Lowecur,

Is your name Frank, Johnny, or are you perhaps a member of the CAL Flight ops management team? Weren't Franky and Johnny lovers? You sure seem like an MBA bean counter type with no clue about managing people. Sounds like legacy mgt? Just in case you can't figure out why JBLU pilots and the industry as a whole might be a little PO'd about the proposed 190 rates, here's a little comparison fo similar sized aircraft throughout the industry (eff. 2005)I'll just add a couple that were in effect before B6:

12 yr. CA rates (737-500, DC-9, CRJ-700, E-190):

NWA $191
SWA $188
CAL $158 (2001 rate)
Airtran $153
UAL $147 (in Ch.11)
Horizon $99
Comair $98
Republic/Chaut $90 (190 included?)
JBLU $89!!!!!!!!!
MAA $80 (170)
SKW $79 (up to 99 pax)

A PROFITABLE major airline paying pilots 10% less than profitable "regionals" do to fly aircraft with 30% less revenue potential is criminal. Sorry pal, but paying the going rate for the 190 is forward looking mgt. It would create a C scale at JBLU and a clear division between the "haves" and "have nots" (I think being unemployed is more of a "have not",) negatively impacting morale and making unionization (here we go with the union threat again) a certainty as more people end up on the 190 and realize they could have gone to MESA or CHQ if they wanted to work for slave wages. Well, they would be going in with both eyes open. Perhaps if robots flew planes then Lowecur's philosophy of management would make sense.....

Now if you don't buy into the theory that all three of these airlines will become competitors of B6 in the next 5 years, then you need someone to pinch you on your fat little cheeks.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

then you need someone to pinch you on your fat little cheeks.

Finally. Something you are actually qualified to speak on. Or do. So, pinch away my little friend.

Any of the rest of you who continue to bother with this putz get what you deserve.

 

[lowecur]

Any of the rest of you who continue to bother with this putz get what you deserve.

It's called a contrarian point of view fella. Listen up, you may learn something.

 

[iflynights]

Not really contrarian, just a douche bag. Shut your pie hole -- douche bag!!

 

[lowecur]

Not really contrarian, just a douche bag. Shut your pie hole -- douche bag!!

What's the matter, no interviews yet? Keep me posted.