JetBlue Trashes Pilot Loyalty

[Dizel8]

"I wonder what CAL's earnings would of been if we had an inferior level of compensation and benefits applied towards the entire employee group?"

I wonder if CAL would have made it out of Ch.11 had it not been for a bunch of picket line crossers.

 

[Boeingman]

"I wonder what CAL's earnings would of been if we had an inferior level of compensation and benefits applied towards the entire employee group?"

I wonder if CAL would have made it out of Ch.11 had it not been for a bunch of picket line crossers.

Are you insinuating I am a scab Dizel? Try again. Should you research my posts here my history is clear.

By your response I can only assume that I touched a nerve here. Besides your point is????????????????????????????????

 

[Dizel8]

BM,

Where in that post, did I make a reference to you being a scab? I did not imply, but you may have inferred.

The point is, that compensation at CAL is good now, but that was not the case a relatively short while ago. jetblue is less than five years old and, while it would be nice, it cannot be expected, that we should offer compensation at the level of the established majors.

"And lets not forget to make sure they were all at less than 5 year pay scales."
Well, they can only pay at the 5 year pay scale, because that is how old the company is!

 

[Boeingman]

BM,

Where in that post, did I make a reference to you being a scab? I did not imply, but you may have inferred.

The point is, that compensation at CAL is good now, but that was not the case a relatively short while ago. jetblue is less than five years old and, while it would be nice, it cannot be expected, that we should offer compensation at the level of the established majors.

"And lets not forget to make sure they were all at less than 5 year pay scales."
Well, they can only pay at the 5 year pay scale, because that is how old the company is!

I think we're diverging here on the electronic medium. I wasn't sure of the intent and comment about our BK and people crossing.

Your points are valid, as are mine. What you said is in essance the same thing I'm trying to convey to Mr. Bayou. His bringing up diametric company financials and economics and trying to diss CAL's financials is nothing but a lame response to a conversation I overheard about a disgruntled pilot leaving JB. I thought his response as being rather odd and overly sensitive.

When one tries to gloat about their earnings (Bayou), one should take all factors into account about both companies as you have accurately posted.

FWIW, I do believe that the Air Trans, JB's and such will be the role model of airline contracts for many years to come. The industry is in a major state of transition and with supply and demand of pilots as it is, the contracts of yesteryear are gone. That is not an attack or finger pointing, it is just the way it is.

You seem like a level headed guy, an honest question without the intent of flame directed. Is anyone over there seriously not worried about those 5 year contracts? I have to tell you that no matter what, I can't view that as anything but suspicious and a ace in managements sleeve for use later for "any" type of pilot problem. I guess I'm saying...why bother to have them in the first place? It seems like a recurring 5 year "probation".

 

[Dizel8]

BM,

Well, my intent was certainly not to imply, that you were less than honorable.

"You seem like a level headed guy, an honest question without the intent of flame directed. Is anyone over there seriously not worried about those 5 year contracts? I have to tell you that no matter what, I can't view that as anything but suspicious and a ace in managements sleeve for use later for "any" type of pilot problem. I guess I'm saying...why bother to have them in the first place? It seems like a recurring 5 year "probation".

I cannot speak for all the pilots, only for myself, but the short answer is no, it does not give me cause for concern. As I have said in another post, the company knows well, that any undue firing would rapidly produce negative results and since they are wanting jetblue to be a great place to work, such ethics, or rather lack of, would be counterproductive.

Mind you, one can get fired while working under a union contract. Yes, the steps are certainly more involved, but it does happen.

Why have them? Not sure I really can answer that, sure someone smarter than me can explain the reason, however, where as they are for five years terms, they also contain a "evergreen" clause, stating that it automatically at expiration, is valid for another five years.

As for BB, I am sure he can speak for himself. All I can say, is having done this for a while, that things can change rapidly. All we can do, is hang on for the ride and hope, as you said, that we get to hang the uniform in the closet, having had a good career.

 

[embdrvr]

BM,
The point is, that compensation at CAL is good now, but that was not the case a relatively short while ago. jetblue is less than five years old and, while it would be nice, it cannot be expected, that we should offer compensation at the level of the established majors.

What pisses many of us off is that they can't even offer a payscale at the level of established regionals to fly a jet that carries almost as many pax as a 737-200.

 

[Dizel8]

"What pisses many of us off is that they can't even offer a payscale at the level of established regionals to fly a jet that carries almost as many pax as a 737-200."

Well, I am sorry that you are pissed off, but again we are talking established. For all intents and purposes, jetblue, depsite it early successes, is not established.

No one knows, if the intent of the 190 will work, it may not. Certainly, one can hope that it will make a profit and if that is the case, I have faith, that the company will share in their good fortune.

 

[a320drivr]

Mgmt. just recinded the pilot agreement and said they are working on a new one and until then we would operate under the "Evergreen" Language of the old one.

 

[Schwanker]

Mgmt. just recinded the pilot agreement and said they are working on a new one and until then we would operate under the "Evergreen" Language of the old one.

Management is working on a new one? Don't the pilots sit at the table and negotiate a new one or does management just come up with a contract that fits their needs and expect you to comply?

Hopefully they'll get the pay scales up and get you a retirement package too (I'm under the impression one doesn't exist now, is that true?).

Best of Luck to you at JBLU,

Schwanker

 

[AKAAB]

Well, some of my faith has been restored.

They could have just said, "take it or leave it", but that is not how they operate. Included in the email this morning was a sincere apology from David and Dave for failing to communicate with us on the contract changes. Management has listened and is willing to retool the agreement. I think that falls under the "do the right thing" category.

I suspect you'll see direct pilot input in the next agreement, although, until the 190's are on property and prove their worth, the pay rates will probably stay where they are.

AKAAB
"on-on"

 

[SpeedBird]

AKAAB:

I have to agree with you that D3 have taken the right step here and moved in a direction that is consistent with their prior actions (excluding this latest faux pas). I am interested to see what specific issues will be modified/changed, but I have to agree that 190 pay rates will most likely see no changes until the aircraft are flying revenue flights for at least a year. If jetBlue knocks the cover off the ball then pay rates will move up accordingly. The focus must be on making changes to pay rates that lag demonstrated profit margins that fall in the 10%-15% range. This ensures that the airline's financial health remains the first priority.

Schwanker:

jetBlue pilots have no formal process in place (yet) to sit down with jetBlue management and discuss such labor agreements prior to putting pen to paper. This latest episode will more than likely change that going forward. Despite being a non-union carrier jetBlue pilots had a great opportunity to voice their concerns in a non-retribution environment and IMO there was a productive exchange between the two groups. BTW, while there is no DB pension plan at jetBlue we do have company-matched 401Ks and profit sharing contributions that any responsible pilot would use to build up a nice retirement fund that is truly portable and protected when the time comes to pull chocks and retire.

 

[airbaker]

While we're not allowed to copy and paste the contents of the "apology" letter (due to our nondisclosure and computer network policy agreements), I will say that I was very impressed with the content. It was a humble apology that addressed their deficencies in communicating changes to the agreement. I know I don't speak for everyone, but I continue to be impressed with their leadership abilities. True leaders recognize when they've made mistakes, analyze and address them, and then move forward.

I think we're going to be an even stronger company moving forward. I have no doubt that our compensation levels will continue to increase. But priority number one is to ensure that we have a viable business model in this extremely competitive industry (not to mention escalating energy prices). I'm not saying that I wouldn't love to make $210/hour - but I'd rather have a sustained career with a healthy carrier; one that can continue to generate 10%-15% operating margins.

 

[iflynights]

While it was a nice explanation to the contract, I don't know that helped. They say they did a poor job managing expectations, but still are not going to give us a pay raise. Kinda of, "thanks for telling us what you didn't like, but we aren't going to change it or make you sign it."

Again, a nice letter, but no real content...

 

[banger]

Keep the faith

iflynights
Yea I'll have to agree, nicely worded letter with no real indication of what to expect. It's a start though and I'll keep the faith.

 

[Dizel8]

iflynights,

This may comes across as harsh, but why hang around, why not just quit? Not when something better comes along, just quit now and be happy that you are no longer associated with jetblue.

No one said this would be a cake walk, or that roses has no thorns. This is, regardless of the success achieved, still a upstart carrier and as such, things happen. Yes, we could be paid more, yes the 190 scale is low, yes reserve is getting longer, yes, yes whatever you conceive to be a problem.

So, just get over it. Don't like it here, don't think it will change, don't think it is worth it, be off to FDX, SWA, AAI, be happy and content, enjoy life.

Don't spend your life being unhappy, go find what makes you happy! Leave jetblue to the people who thinks this company has tremendous potential, something you obviously do not believe in.

I wish you the very best of luck and I mean that sincerely!

 

[NYRANGERS]

iflynights,

This may comes across as harsh, but why hang around, why not just quit? Not when something better comes along, just quit now and be happy that you are no longer associated with jetblue.

No one said this would be a cake walk, or that roses has no thorns. This is, regardless of the success achieved, still a upstart carrier and as such, things happen. Yes, we could be paid more, yes the 190 scale is low, yes reserve is getting longer, yes, yes whatever you conceive to be a problem.

So, just get over it. Don't like it here, don't think it will change, don't think it is worth it, be off to FDX, SWA, AAI, be happy and content, enjoy life.

Don't spend your life being unhappy, go find what makes you happy! Leave jetblue to the people who thinks this company has tremendous potential, something you obviously do not believe in.

I wish you the very best of luck and I mean that sincerely!

Just out of morbid curiostiy. What action will you take when something you don't like comes along and a fellow jb pilots gives you the same advice? This profession (soon to be hobby, at this rate) cannot survive with the new pilot attitude of "IF you don't like it, you can leave."

So sad what a few years has done to this profession.

 

[Dizel8]

"Just out of morbid curiostiy. What action will you take when something you don't like comes along and a fellow jb pilots gives you the same advice?"

I would go find my happiness someplace else. Bitching on a BB, while perhaps liberating, will get you squat. The saying goes: Lead, follow or get out of the way!

If iflynights, or myself for that matter, believes that the grass is so much greener on the other side, then go get it. I had a couple of leads overseas , but having applied a bit of thought to the whole thing, I decided that jetblue was much to be preferred. That is just me, and iflynights feels different about the future of jetblue, so he should find what makes him happy.

If someone was bitching up a storm about DAL, what would you say? Heck, if I am not wrong, you are on furlough, yet you still believe in the company and wants to see it prosper. I find that to be an honorable trait and shows me the integrity of the DAL employees. Needless to say, I would hope for the same in the people who I work with!

 

[NYRANGERS]

"
If someone was bitching up a storm about DAL, what would you say? Heck, if I am not wrong, you are on furlough, yet you still believe in the company and wants to see it prosper. I find that to be an honorable trait and shows me the integrity of the DAL employees. Needless to say, I would hope for the same in the people who I work with!

I understand where you are comming from. With regards to Delta, I do feel there is a need for us to give, as does my union. However, my company thinks they need $1.02 Billion and we think around $700-$800 Million. If we applied your logic at Delta, thousands of Delta pilots would have to quit, because we don't agree with the $1.02 Billion number. We have a voice that our company has to hear, then both sides take rational measures to try and do what is best for the company. It is not an all or nothing, take it or leave it approach.

It sounds like the guys at your company are taking a very calm and rational approach to dissenting over the EMB-190 rates. If you take a, "If you don't like it you can leave" approach, your voice is not heard and your company may not understand your concerns. This results in feelings of under appreciation etc, etc and may do more damage to your company then voicing displeasure.

Either way, it sounds like JB management got the message and will do what they can to keep you guys happy. I believe the success of your company lies in the relationships of employees and management and as importantly, the favorable eyes of wall street. It may be that the only way for JB to show a profit when the EMB-190 comes, is to pay these wages. It would not bode well for JB to show a loss, your success is deeply tied to a favorable credit rating.

I don't think management would risk thier relationship with employees unless it meant they were worried about the future and couldn't pay higher rates. Although, I don't think an airline deserves to operate the EMB-190 at those rates. There always will be a "relative" bottom pay rate in this industry, it just comes as a shock that it is at your company and at that rate.

Either way, I wish you luck and happiness,

NYR (I know, I know, the Rangers suck.....they hardly have a roster anymore. It's a rebuilding decade)

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Latest note today from Dave Barger has rescinded the new contract... They heard enough from the pilots and they responded accordingly-- an adendum to the old contract is in the works, but I believe the pay rates are going to stay the same...

 

[side stick-n]

Dizel8,

I believe you speak for the majority of the pilots at JetBlue. I don't want anyone to stay here if they are unhappy with the company or the job. I would like to ask iflynights to continue to provide the level of service our customers have come to enjoy until he finds employment elsewhere. That would be the honorable thing to do.



I have put my complete trust in D2 and Al from the beginning and I don’t plan on changing that view now but will only change the tag to D3 and Al. The fact that our A320 pay was an industry low didn’t bother anyone when we started over 4 years ago. We were a nobody; a start-up carrier that everyone thought would disappear in a matter of months. Those rates gave us the ability to be competitive immediately and profitable in a very few months. As we added aircraft to the fleet and were able to generate additional revenue, we were able to increase the pay rate for that aircraft. There is NO doubt in my mind that the same will hold true for the EMB190. The only problem now is that we are no longer an airline wannabe but a major carrier that is perceived by the legacy carriers as a threat to their way of life.



I see these rates as an extremely smart move. Many here have stated that there is no way they would fly a 100-seat jet for those rates. If that’s the case, it would appear the chances of any major adding these aircraft to their fleet has diminished considerably. Why buy them and put them in service if you can’t find anyone to fly them at competitive rates? Additionally, why isn’t Chautauqua being hounded as much or more for accepting rates even lower than ours? You can bet they would be willing to fly them as someone’s regional partner.



So NYRANGERS, YES, I’m taking a VERY calm and rational approach to these 190 rates AND any new employment agreement. To date, D3 and Al have never let us down. They have always been honest and sincere. They have admitted their mistakes and have always done the right thing in the end. How can we NOT keep faith in a management team that will award the group a large pay raise at a time of recession and economic trouble as they did after 9/11. At the same time, almost every other airline was either actively furloughing or planning to. All of this with an employment agreement that guaranteed NO pilot furlough for the life of the agreement. It’s called TRUST. I can understand why it is impossible for “most” other airline pilots to trust their management. If I were them, I wouldn’t either. Because of this, I can understand why there are “some” JetBlue pilots that are having a very hard time trusting D3 and Al. It will be interesting to see those pilots’ views three years from now.