JetBlue pilots lose more domestic flying.

[Lake Alice]

NEW YORK — JetBlue Airways Corp. and Hawaiian Airlines have formed a partnership that will allow passengers to fly on both carriers’ flights on a single ticket.

The deal, which is expected to be formally announced later Monday, follows Hawaiian Airlines’ announcement of plans to add New York service direct from its home base in Honolulu starting in June. Customers on both airlines will be able to connect with those flights through JetBlue’s base at New York’s JFK.

(Ted S. Warren, File/Associated Press) - FILE - In this Jan. 19, 2012 file photo, icicles can be seen on a Hawaiian Airlines plane as others are de-iced in the background, at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, in Seattle. JetBlue Airways Corp. and Hawaiian Airlines have formed a partnership Monday, Jan. 23, 2012, that will allow passengers to fly on both carriers’ flights on a single ticket.
In the meantime, passengers can connect through Los Angeles International Airport to Hawaiian Airlines one-stop service from Hawaii to New York.

Besides added flight options, travelers will also be able to earn or redeem frequent flier miles on each other’s flights, starting with the New York service in June.

Partnerships like this allow airlines to expand their service without spending more money to add flights on their own. Hawaiian Airlines already has similar partnerships, called codeshares, with major U.S. airlines including United-Continental, Delta and American. JetBlue has deals with a number of international carriers, including Ireland’s Aer Lingus, Virgin Atlantic Airways and Emirates.

Copyright 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Thank you 1193

 

[BeachBummer]

No, we aren't losing this flying. We are gaining insight to a market for when we order wide body A/C. That way we'll already know what the loads should be. We're going to be huge! God, who wants to sit on a plane that long anyways...




This is a sarcastic post for those who fail to realize...

 

[Smarta$$]

NEW YORK — JetBlue Airways Corp. and Hawaiian Airlines have formed a partnership that will allow passengers to fly on both carriers’ flights on a single ticket.

The deal, which is expected to be formally announced later Monday, follows Hawaiian Airlines’ announcement of plans to add New York service direct from its home base in Honolulu starting in June. Customers on both airlines will be able to connect with those flights through JetBlue’s base at New York’s JFK.

(Ted S. Warren, File/Associated Press) - FILE - In this Jan. 19, 2012 file photo, icicles can be seen on a Hawaiian Airlines plane as others are de-iced in the background, at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, in Seattle. JetBlue Airways Corp. and Hawaiian Airlines have formed a partnership Monday, Jan. 23, 2012, that will allow passengers to fly on both carriers’ flights on a single ticket.
In the meantime, passengers can connect through Los Angeles International Airport to Hawaiian Airlines one-stop service from Hawaii to New York.

Besides added flight options, travelers will also be able to earn or redeem frequent flier miles on each other’s flights, starting with the New York service in June.

Partnerships like this allow airlines to expand their service without spending more money to add flights on their own. Hawaiian Airlines already has similar partnerships, called codeshares, with major U.S. airlines including United-Continental, Delta and American. JetBlue has deals with a number of international carriers, including Ireland’s Aer Lingus, Virgin Atlantic Airways and Emirates.

Copyright 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Thank you 1193

So, you are saying that with a union, JB would not have had this agreement?

Do you maybe, see, any wholes in your argument? I left you a hint...

I do agree that this sucks that we are not doing it ourselves...

 

[Fubijaakr]

I wasn't aware B6 served Hawaii. How did I miss their jets on the ramps at HNL, OGG, LIH, and KOA?

 

[satlol]

How did I miss their jets on the ramps at HNL, OGG, LIH, and KOA?

Umm...I'm gonna guess you were either: on Flightinfo/APC, taking pictures of yourself by the airplane to show your friend, calling your mom to tell her how you bested the First Officer by hand-flying the entire flight...Umm...

 

[Dan Roman]

Isn't that a like saying Hawaiian lost all that east coast flying? We can't realistically do the feed you do and you can't realistically fly to Hawaii. Seems like a win for both airlines. A JetBlue flight connecting to a Hawaiian flight will be the best service to Hawaii available. You guys have some of the best domestic service out there, we have a superior product in the Hawaii market. And yes, it is a good way for you to test the long haul market. We did it with Korean before we started our own flights to Korea. ALPA would not have stood in the way of an agreement like this.

 

[aewanabe]

Isn't that a like saying Hawaiian lost all that east coast flying? We can't realistically do the feed you do and you can't realistically fly to Hawaii. Seems like a win for both airlines. A JetBlue flight connecting to a Hawaiian flight will be the best service to Hawaii available. You guys have some of the best domestic service out there, we have a superior product in the Hawaii market. And yes, it is a good way for you to test the long haul market. We did it with Korean before we started our own flights to Korea. ALPA would not have stood in the way of an agreement like this.

I'll try to respond without the chest-beating I'm sometimes guilty of. In a nutshell, you're correct Dan. It likely is a win for both companies and I'm looking forward to being able to ZED my son out to Hawaii on you guys.

The heartburn for us is that as a pilot group we have precisely ZERO input or limiting factors for this type of flying. I believe we are up to 13 of these agreements now, with more on the way. Most are with longhaul carriers such as Singapore, Lufthansa, Aer Lingus, etc. I'm well aware that my A320 isn't going to HI or Europe anytime soon, but I'd like to think that in a few years I could take an A330 or A350 (or DC-10, if I'm dreaming) with a JB tail number. But as long as JB can put our customers on everyone elses's jets, we don't exactly need to expand into that type of flying.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

So, you are saying that with a union, JB would not have had this agreement?

Do you maybe, see, any wholes in your argument? I left you a hint...

I do agree that this sucks that we are not doing it ourselves...

Kee-rist.....um...do YOU?

 

[DieselDragRacer]

Umm...I'm gonna guess you were either: on Flightinfo/APC, taking pictures of yourself by the airplane to show your friend, calling your mom to tell her how you bested the First Officer by hand-flying the entire flight...Umm...

:smash: :laugh:

 

[linepilot]

Don't worry everybody.

Jetblue will start looking at those 330's again just as soon as the next union campaign ramps up.

Hell.

 

[Smarta$$]

Kee-rist.....um...do YOU?

Yes, I used the wrong spelling. Congratulations jack@$$.

 

[Dan Roman]

I'll try to respond without the chest-beating I'm sometimes guilty of. In a nutshell, you're correct Dan. It likely is a win for both companies and I'm looking forward to being able to ZED my son out to Hawaii on you guys.

The heartburn for us is that as a pilot group we have precisely ZERO input or limiting factors for this type of flying. I believe we are up to 13 of these agreements now, with more on the way. Most are with longhaul carriers such as Singapore, Lufthansa, Aer Lingus, etc. I'm well aware that my A320 isn't going to HI or Europe anytime soon, but I'd like to think that in a few years I could take an A330 or A350 (or DC-10, if I'm dreaming) with a JB tail number. But as long as JB can put our customers on everyone elses's jets, we don't exactly need to expand into that type of flying.

I hear you and understand were you are coming from. That said though, it seems to me the best way for JB to expand into the A330/350 type of flying will be to first build up a network of the types of feed you are doing, then add your own wide bodies. You can really lose your ass fast if you start up a bunch of wide body type flying without a solid foundation that the codeshares give you. At least that's my take on the deal.

 

[Flyby1206]

I hear you and understand were you are coming from. That said though, it seems to me the best way for JB to expand into the A330/350 type of flying will be to first build up a network of the types of feed you are doing, then add your own wide bodies. You can really lose your ass fast if you start up a bunch of wide body type flying without a solid foundation that the codeshares give you. At least that's my take on the deal.

I agree, but to play devil's advocate.. How much feed did Hawaiian have when you guys started up the recent Asian expansion from HNL?

I think there is enough existing O&D traffic in the NYC area to support some Europe and South America flying without counting the existing jetblue feed (which we do have a considerable amount of traffic flowing through JFK/BOS for our current Domestic ops).

I do think we will make a jump to the widebody flying in the next few years, but I think it is more of an infrastructure limitation as opposed to creating more feed. We need to finish construction on the T5i (customs/immigration and more widebody capable gates) and somehow gain new slots to do this widebody flying. Cannibalizing our existing slot portfolio in order to put a few heavies out there would hurt the feed foundation that we already have.

 

[Lake Alice]

While I doubt we'll ever do wide body flying because JetBlue would rather outsource the slot issue will fix itself with the 321's. The north/south Florida market is suppose to lose frequency once the 321's arrive therefore alleviating some slot pressure.

 

[$$$4nothin]

I agree. Yes I would love to get all the flying that our interline partners do. However we all know that we aren't getting 330's/340's to do all of that flying any time in the near future. Regardles of a union being on property. I am going to try and think of this on the bright side however and think that the 296 people that Hawaiin brings to us every day will fill up 2 A-320's or 3 E-190's. So yes we are giving up a planes worth of jobs to Hawaiian each day, but they are giving us 2 to 3 planes worth in return. Granted some people might by New Yorkers or Hawaiins that just fly back and forth from NY to Hawaii, however many will travel via the JB sytem to connect to the islands, and alot of islanders will connect via the JB sytem as well.

You have got to look at it like giveing up $1 to get $2 or $3 in return.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Where did Hawaiian get the JFK slot for the new service? Did JetBlue give it to them?

 

[n757st]

While I doubt we'll ever do wide body flying because JetBlue would rather outsource the slot issue will fix itself with the 321's. The north/south Florida market is suppose to lose frequency once the 321's arrive therefore alleviating some slot pressure.

This is also the reason for the lga slot purchase. Convert those slots to north south flying and alleviate slot pressure in JFK.

 

[mozzer]

I agree. Yes I would love to get all the flying that our interline partners do. However we all know that we aren't getting 330's/340's to do all of that flying any time in the near future. Regardles of a union being on property. I am going to try and think of this on the bright side however and think that the 296 people that Hawaiin brings to us every day will fill up 2 A-320's or 3 E-190's. So yes we are giving up a planes worth of jobs to Hawaiian each day, but they are giving us 2 to 3 planes worth in return. Granted some people might by New Yorkers or Hawaiins that just fly back and forth from NY to Hawaii, however many will travel via the JB sytem to connect to the islands, and alot of islanders will connect via the JB sytem as well.

You have got to look at it like giveing up $1 to get $2 or $3 in return.

You have management written all over you.

 

[Lake Alice]

The rationale, according to leadership, for jetblue to form these alliances/future code shares was to test the viability of these markets for a later entrance. BS. Call it what it is. A method to give our customers travel options without EVER having to do the flying ourselves. It's just business shrouded in "values".

 

[$$$4nothin]

You have management written all over you.

Yup. You got me. I am a management lacky. (deep sarcasm if you can't read into it). Just because I am trying to see a bright side in an otherwise crappy situation doesn't mean I have management written all over me. However I wouldn't mind an upper management style parachute so I don't have to worry about my retirement.

 

[johnsonrod]

In my opinion, JB has great feed (both JFK and BOS) and a great terminal in JFK - you have the pieces of the puzzle to have an international program. With your feed in the NE, certainly South America would be viable with A330s. I bet you could fill several A330s daily. Not sure about Europe just yet - I guess I would probably wait for Europe to improve financially (probably 3-5 years).

 

[Lake Alice]

Most of our pilots share the same sentiment. Unfortunately The powers that be do not and as long as we have a PVC that will continue to approve these code shares and alliances it will continue. Again, just business.

 

[curtaindriver]

Most of our pilots share the same sentiment. Unfortunately The powers that be do not and as long as we have a PVC that will continue to approve these code shares and alliances it will continue. Again, just business.

Lake, I love you bro..........but if you honestly believe a union would deter JetBlue from making these kind of business decisions then you have zero understanding of how a CBA works. We could definitely have restrictive scope, and language that drives some protections with regards to a codeshare.........but to zero them out and somehow force JB to buy its own widebodies is just plain dreaming. (excuse the pun, disregarding spelling)

Not to mention, you and I were hired on the same day..........and have witnessed how certain mistakes almost crippled this company. The 190 itself has caused huge headaches as this company continues to grow and mature. Having said that, I believe a wide-body would be a disaster right now. We DO NOT have the domestic feed to fill enough twin-aisle planes to make them viable..................if we did I truly believe JB would buy them. Do I think they are coming? Maybe........i really don't care. I just want this company to be profitable enough that when/if we can sit at the negotiating table we can achieve a contract that is representative of the hardwork of this pilot group. And provide the protections, ones that are actually achievable, we so richly desire and deserve.

CD

 

[Lake Alice]

I cannot disagree with anything you wrote except as long as we can continue alliances we won't order wide bodies. But we need a say. We're all logical enough to have it.
Now get back to work and go break down somewhere.

 

[curtaindriver]

I cannot disagree with anything you wrote except as long as we can continue alliances we won't order wide bodies. But we need a say. We're all logical enough to have it.
Now get back to work and go break down somewhere.

Haha!! no doubt

CD

 

[johnsonrod]

Lake, I love you bro..........but if you honestly believe a union would deter JetBlue from making these kind of business decisions then you have zero understanding of how a CBA works. We could definitely have restrictive scope, and language that drives some protections with regards to a codeshare.........but to zero them out and somehow force JB to buy its own widebodies is just plain dreaming. (excuse the pun, disregarding spelling)

Not to mention, you and I were hired on the same day..........and have witnessed how certain mistakes almost crippled this company. The 190 itself has caused huge headaches as this company continues to grow and mature. Having said that, I believe a wide-body would be a disaster right now. We DO NOT have the domestic feed to fill enough twin-aisle planes to make them viable..................if we did I truly believe JB would buy them. Do I think they are coming? Maybe........i really don't care. I just want this company to be profitable enough that when/if we can sit at the negotiating table we can achieve a contract that is representative of the hardwork of this pilot group. And provide the protections, ones that are actually achievable, we so richly desire and deserve.

CD

You know better than I do, but, given the quality of your economy product (comfy seats and good IFE) and the number of feeder flights into JFK, I'd be surprised if you couldn't fill a few A330s on flights to San Paulo, Rio, Buenos Aires and maybe 1-2 European markets - even in this recession. You have the quality product, you can adjust the pricing to fill the seats and cargo bins and you have good feed from 2nd and 3rd tier cities. I guess you would probably need something like 10 A330s to make them profitable - but perhaps you could get pilots cross-qualified on the A320s and A330s (i.e., like in Europe) to reduce some training costs.

Then again, what do I know............ I suppose marketing alliances with guaranteed allotments of seats to sell would be cheaper.......

 

[curtaindriver]

You know better than I do, but, given the quality of your economy product (comfy seats and good IFE) and the number of feeder flights into JFK, I'd be surprised if you couldn't fill a few A330s on flights to San Paulo, Rio, Buenos Aires and maybe 1-2 European markets - even in this recession. You have the quality product, you can adjust the pricing to fill the seats and cargo bins and you have good feed from 2nd and 3rd tier cities. I guess you would probably need something like 10 A330s to make them profitable - but perhaps you could get pilots cross-qualified on the A320s and A330s (i.e., like in Europe) to reduce some training costs.

Then again, what do I know............ I suppose marketing alliances with guaranteed allotments of seats to sell would be cheaper.......

I'm with you on the "what do I know", but I also think we could fill seats to certain markets. But, the problem with that is, what is the sustainability if the market turns south? A few of the reasons our numbers aren't like Alaska Airlines is we have high debt, and a significant number of our markets aren't mature. These are just a few of the reasons we carry so much cash.....1.2 billion represents over 20% of our 12 month trailing costs. Crunch the numbers compared to the other airlines, you'll see we carry a lot........which we all know cash does nothing for us. If we were to take on a fleet of wide-body aircraft, call it 10-15, any significant disruption for the airlines would cripple us.
Do I see someday JetBlue having wide-bodies? I do.......but not until we have over at least 250 aircraft total..( that number is my opinion based on things I've read and heard).
For the present, I hope we keep growing at our current rate......establish more business markets, and let these markets begin to mature............and keep paying down debt!!

CD