Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[scoreboard]

Hey scoreboard, stand back and look at it from as an objective perspective as you can and you will see that the LCCs are willing participants in the race to the bottom.

Don't get POed when the virgin US guys or whoever is next to fly airbuses for peanuts thinks their getting over making say, 100K/year? How about 75K/year as an airbus Captain? Jetblue and the so called legacies are paying Captains what first officers should make. FIX IT!!!!!!

Lets see, standing, backing, objective, OK. First, it's business, it's not about getting PO'd, It's about the LCC's offering a service that consumers prefer over that of the Legacy. The failure is in the legacies management team, not the LCC's management team. Virgin? I think they just got the boot.

Fix what? I like what I see, I have great work rules, benefits, pay, if you don't, you fix it. Oh, and objectively as you can IF you do manage to get your company to succumb to your pay demands, start saving for that rainy day, you'll need it...

You haven't looked around lately have you, pay for every profession is stagnant or retracting, deal with it brother.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I'm an outsider looking in. I don't flame JetBlue but am curious on going ons there....


It was evident 6 months ago that the next year would be tough. Delayed orders and other expenditures affecting cashflow...temporarily. I predicted and still forecast midterm success for the Blue after the cash "crisis" is overcome.

But that doesn't help those working there and feeling the pinch on upgrades/pay. I predicted a trickle to an exodus of pilots and a union drive when the number of Airbus and EMB F/O's reached a critical mass. Somewhere in the neighborhood of the two combined exceeding the number of Airbus CA's. A rough guess, but it coincides with stagnation of upgrades.

I'm thinking D and D can't tell you more than they tell investors due to SEC rules. That's too bad. I'm sure they would like to share the whole plan but can't since it would give competitors an advantage or is "speculation". Is there something more to their communcitions outsiders can't see? You guys seem pretty peed off now.

Lastly, I don't revel in any of the unhappiness at JetBlue. I wish you guys relative success (survival). I predict you will be around for long while. I think organization (ALPA or otherwise) is good for you at this point in your life cycle. It will bring some certainty to your individual situations. Scheduling, work rules and merger protection. It won't be wonderful, but most of you know that.

The super senior dudes are going to fight over this one. Some will error on keeping the status quo to enhance company profit over pilot upgrades and pay. Some want certain pay increases that will help all pilots but cut profit (and growth??). Both are a matter of perspective. I guess it depends if you thought the first 5 years was a sacrifice during startup with money to flow after or if you thought it was a permanent paycut to ensure company goals.

 

[Occam's Razor]

First, it's business, it's not about getting PO'd, It's about the LCC's offering a service that consumers prefer over that of the Legacy. The failure is in the legacies management team, not the LCC's management team.

The LCC's exist, and have always existed, in markets where they believe the consumer will be attracted to an alternative. The attraction is usually price, convienence, or "service". The history of the industy features plenty of start-up LCC's that whacked the beehive, got swarmed...and are now gone. (For a complete list, log onto www.PeoplesExress.gone) The latest wave of LCC's got a nose under the tent flap during a period of vicious body-blows to the industry. Manufacturers, vendors, lenders, and displaced workers were eager to invest in the opportunity they presented.

Luckily for our fellow pilots, none of us believed Doug Steenland when he stood before NWA pilots and told us, "JetBlue is paying their A320 captains $130 an hour. That's the new value of Airbus pilots." Most of us recognized that JetBlue represents a very small segment of the US airline industry. I'm sure they got similar rhetoric from their CEO when the E-190 rates were announced. (Note: Not "negotiated"..."announced")

Fix what? I like what I see, I have great work rules, benefits, pay, if you don't, you fix it.

Ironic. The topic is about organizing.

If most JetBlue pilots determine they want to fix their work rules, benefits, and pay...how do you propose they do it? Please be as specific as possible. I'm interested in hearing your recommendations on how they should determine, then exert, their collective will.

Oh, and objectively as you can IF you do manage to get your company to succumb to your pay demands, start saving for that rainy day, you'll need it....

Good call! Every pilot should save as much as possible.

You haven't looked around lately have you, pay for every profession is stagnant or retracting, deal with it brother.

If only you were correct. The CEO profession seems to be doing pretty well...even when their companies aren't.

 

[scoreboard]

We agree more than disagree. I think your mistaking me for a JB pilot, I'm only responding to the implied "LCC cause all woes" brought up by skykid. My response points out "what has ALPA" done for their members of legacies, not that JB shouldn't use something like them. I'm brand SWA, we have our own union, such as it is. CEO pay is a problem, I'm just a part of the proletariat, can't solve that issue.

 

[lowecur]

If most JetBlue pilots determine they want to fix their work rules, benefits, and pay...how do you propose they do it? Trust mgt to do what's best for everyone or leave the company. Please be as specific as possible. Is that specific enough? I'm interested in hearing your recommendations on how they should determine, then exert, their collective will.

There is no such thing as collective will, there is only the bifurcation between the junior and senior ranks where a collective pecking order is created for the benefit of you know who.

Lets hear you play devil's advocate and expound upon what Jetblue mgt should have done and when they should have done it? Be specific on pay increases (percentage), work rules, and benefits. Then tell us all in your inimitable wisdom how Jetblue can still maintain a competitive edge, not fracture other employee groups and garner 10-15% profit margins?

imp:​

 

[PCL_128]

Trust mgt to do what's best for everyone

That's quite possibly the funniest thing I've ever read. Thanks for the laughs! :laugh:

 

[HA25]

That's quite possibly the funniest thing I've ever read. Thanks for the laughs! :laugh:

That must be the Hawaiian punch variety of Koolaid.. double strength brew.

 

[lowecur]

That's quite possibly the funniest thing I've ever read. Thanks for the laughs! :laugh:

You sir, have not followed my storied pontifications on this board.

Now I'm off to watch Mike Hart and Co, and you can snap your panties and remember who runs this world.

imp:​

 

[Occam's Razor]

Trust mgt to do what's best for everyone or leave the company.

Is that you, Mr. Lay? I thought you were dead! Mr. Skilling is going to come up here for 7-10 winters in Minnesota, while you're spending eternity in Dante's 8th ring. (Bummer about O.J. booking that 9th ring, huh?) All the ex-Enron employees wish you the best!

There is no such thing as collective will, there is only the bifurcation between the junior and senior ranks where a collective pecking order is created for the benefit of you know who.

(sigh)

That "bifurcation" thingy? Is that what they used at Comair in '01 and NWA in '98...when 100% of the pilots walked? You remember...the senior NWA pilots walked off the job to end the B-scale (which was still on the table at the deadline)? That 100% included the 3,000 pilots who'd never been on a B-scale.

Your thesis fails on empirical evaluation of the facts.

Try again.

Lets hear you play devil's advocate and expound upon what Jetblue mgt should have done and when they should have done it? Be specific on pay increases (percentage), work rules, and benefits.

Don't know. Don't care.

JetBlue management can do what ever they choose.

The JetBlue pilots have chosen to "trust mgt to do what's best for everyone...".

Then tell us all in your inimitable wisdom how Jetblue can still maintain a competitive edge, not fracture other employee groups and garner 10-15% profit margins?

1. I don't care if JetBlue gains, let alone "maintains" a competitive edge.
2. I don't believe JetBlue will ever achieve and maintain 10-15% profit margins (EBIDAR). I think they will feel a lot of competitive pressure from the legacy carriers over the coming quarters.

 

[IronCityBlue]

easy questions, easy answers

There is no such thing as collective will, there is only the bifurcation between the junior and senior ranks where a collective pecking order is created for the benefit of you know who. Are you talking about a handful of CEO's, analysts, speculators and pundits who wax on and off about the trials and tribulations of the greedy labor cost unit?

Lets hear you play devil's advocate and expound upon what Jetblue mgt should have done and when they should have done it? Be specific on pay increases (percentage), COLA (at least partial COLA) for 320 pilots and 60-65% Captain pay for FO's work rules Better reserve rules for starters and a few other minor things. We all know Rome wasn't built in a day., and benefits. AirTran has a 10.5% B fund and a 15% discount (I believe) stock purchase plan. I think that's HIGHLY attainable right now and wouldn't "choke the golden goose" Then tell us all in your inimitable wisdom how Jetblue can still maintain a competitive edge, Great product, reasonable fares, expanding and improving consumer reach (miles program, maybe some intl alliances, connecting the dots and adding a few kew markets and a first class, the lack of which is by far our biggest burden, not pilot pay) not fracture other employee groups We deserve to be compensated significantly better than our fellow employees who come to the job off the street with no required education and a 3 week training course (or less). Anyone who can't handel that fact can high tail it back to the USSR where they belong. and garner 10-15% profit margins? I'm in favor of the highest profit margin possible. But I'm under no illusion that you have to make 10-15% to be viable. What's Southwest's long term profit margin been? If JetBlue makes 5-10% even if your assumption is true that better pilot compensation that still keeps pilot CASM among the lowest in the nation will have a large impact on the profit margin of a well run company is true (which it isn't, and you know that) it would still be a very profitable company, especially on scale for a company its size now.

imp:​

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