Jet rudder technique

[Typhoon1244]

I've noticed an unusual phenomenon that I can't explain. Maybe I'm missing something...

Quite often, I will seat myself in the cockpit of a Canadair CRJ-200 shortly after another captain of approximately my height and leg proportions (I'm 6'0") has left. I will adjust the seat so that I can comfortably and confidently manipulate the yoke and throttles, sometimes even using the little "gunsight" on the windshield center post...only to find that the rudder pedals are cranked all the way back to my armpits.

Now my preference is to crank the pedals all the way to the stops away from me. I still have full rudder and brake authority, but my legs aren't bent at a sixty degree angle. And yet guys with legs the same length as mine are riding around with the pedals in their laps.

This is not a joke; I'm serious: is there some rule of jet rudder technique that I'm missing?

 

[Timebuilder]

I'd be hard pressed to know if you have missed something about jet rudder technique, since I am still acquiring my adult teeth in the jet world.

One thing that I have noticed is this: at 250 knots in a low-altitude cruise, when a training captain pulls an engine on you, the forces you must apply to keep the plane straight are considerable. I found I really had to press HARD on the opposite rudder to counter the asymmetric thrust from the operating engine.

Perhaps the captains you spoke of have found it easier to prepare for an engine loss by positioning the rudder pedals closer to their body, finding it easier to push the opposite rudder if the pedal is closer?

 

[falcondriver]

I have a tendency to pull my seat up and bring the rudders a little to close due to the fact the I wan't to be able to stomp on the rudder if a co-pilot pushes on the wrong rudder during a failed engine. I'm only 5ft 8, which doesn't help when I have a big co-pilot in the other seat.
fd

 

[bigD]

if a co-pilot pushes on the wrong rudder during a failed engine.

You're the third person this week that I've heard mentioning a pilot pushing the wrong rudder pedal after losing an engine.

I'm not doubting that this kind of thing happens, but I'm curious to know why or how it does. I mean, if I'm driving my car and the road curves to the right up ahead, I find it hard to believe that I'll ever turn the wheel to the left by mistake. I find it hard to believe that ANYONE would do that. "Oops - I ran off the road because I forgot which way to turn the wheel to make the car go to the right."

What's the difference when you lose an engine? It's not like you have to first figure out which engine failed, then identify which way the plane would yaw, and THEN determine which rudder pedal to push. The nose swings - you instinctivly push the correct pedal to stop it. That's it.

What am I missing here? I must be missing something, because people are apparently doing it.

 

[falcondriver]

I have said the same thing myself. I've been in the sim many times and had somebody stomp on the wrong rudder. You would think that nobody would do it but as a captain are you willing to give a co-pilot a chance to kill you?
FD

 

[rfeathe1]

Typhoon 1244--the first time you lose an engine on takeoff or on climbout you will understand why most pilots keep the pedals up close--even if it means your legs are bent. I did this on every takeoff & climbout. In cruise I would slide my seat back, stretch my legs & relax.

 

[bigD]

falconpilot - don't get me wrong, I completely understand why you do it. And someday if I'm ever fortunate enough to be in your position, I'm sure I'll do the same thing!

It's just one of those things where I have no idea why it ever happens.

 

[falcondriver]

I guess doing it comes from the fact that flying 135 freight in the middle of the night after being up all day has a tendency to be dangerous if your not careful. Don't get me wrong, I could stomp on the wrong rudder after flying all day and into the night in bad weather. I always try to tell the co-pilots to watch me and I will watch them. I love a two man/person crew concept. I hated flying Barons by myself.
To each his own...
Falcondriver

 

[surplus1]

As you pointed out in your initial post, you are talking about "technique". Technique presupposes that the way of doing something is optional. Essentially your pedals are adjustable for two reasons, i.e., stature of the pilot and preference of the pilot. Provided you retain full rudder travel capability, with some room left over, where you set the pedals is in fact "technique" = where you like them.

Like many seasoned pilots I know, my own preference is somewhat closer than required for full travel. I'd rather have full travel without my legs being fully extended. The chance I'll ever need full rudder or for that matter any rudder at all is relatively rare, but when I do I like the feeling that it's there without too much "movement".

Each time you sit for the first leg in that bird, adjust everything to the position that is most comfortable for you and that should do it. Generally speaking, a lot of rudder use in high performance jet aircraft is not the way to go. Excessive rudder deflections can overstress the vertical fin particularly if it's a back and forth thing. Otherwise, it is as you say ... technique.

 

[captjim]

It's funny you mention this subject. I'm about 6'4" and I sit with the rudder pedals all the way forword, but my seat full forword. I guess I'm a tall guy with really short arms, sort of like Mr Potato Head!

 

[HighSpeed]

You're the third person this week that I've heard mentioning a pilot pushing the wrong rudder pedal after losing an engine.

I'm not doubting that this kind of thing happens, but I'm curious to know why or how it does. I mean, if I'm driving my car and the road curves to the right up ahead, I find it hard to believe that I'll ever turn the wheel to the left by mistake. I find it hard to believe that ANYONE would do that.....

It Does Happen! Ask How Coex has lost their only EMB-145 RJ.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X09555&key=1

NTSB Identification: FTW98MA126. The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number DMS.

accident occurred Wednesday, February 11, 1998 at Beaumont, TX
Aircraft:Embraer 145-ER, registration: N14931
Injuries: 1 Serious, 1 Minor, 2 Uninjured.
The pilot-in-command (PIC) was administering a proficiency check flight to the first officer (FO) in a regional jet. One of the required check items was the loss of an engine at "V1" speed. While on takeoff roll with the FO at the controls, the PIC retarded the left engine throttle to idle when "V1" speed was attained. The FO called, "check max thrust," and then called, "positive rate gear up." As the PIC reached for the gear lever, he noticed the airplane roll to the left at a rate which he felt was "excessive and dangerous." He then reached for the flight controls and felt the left rudder "go all the way to the floor." As the PIC took control of the airplane, he applied full right rudder and right aileron. The airplane began recovering from the bank and impacted the ground. Flight recorder data revealed that the time interval between the throttle retarded to idle and ground impact was about 8 seconds. The data showed that the airplane became airborne about 2 seconds after the throttle was retarded, and that the airplane had rolled to a 71 degree left bank within 6 seconds from the throttle reduction. Ground scars and wreckage distribution revealed that the left wing had contacted the ground first and then the right wing prior to the airplane coming to rest. The FO had a total of 15 hours in the type aircraft in the last 90 days. Examinations of the airframe, engines, and flight control system did not reveal any anomalies that could have contributed to the accident. Company flight training policy stated that all check airmen should be ready to take control of the airplane while practicing these types of training maneuvers.

 

[ultrarunner]

And the PC was being conducted in the plane as opposed to the sim because??????????

And the FO had 15 hrs in 90 days....guess he was resting up.

 

[HighSpeed]

And the PC was being conducted in the plane as opposed to the sim because??????????

There was no sim at the time. The first 145 simulator to get certified in the US was at the end of Feb. 1998.

 

[ultrarunner]

And did Coex flight training manual require an actual v1 cut??? I mean, this is an exercise in procedure. IMO, there's no reason the IP needs to make it as difficult as possible to the point of leaving themselves no room to recover.

Now, I admit, its always easy to 'second-guess', but I too have done in-plane training, in jets, as an IP. (at the time, FO's didn't go to sim), and our policy was..ok, planes climbing, there hasn't been a REAL engi. failure, no ones gonna die--- throttle idle... Let the calls begin....etc...

But, that's just me.

 

[EagleRJ]

And did Coex flight training manual require an actual v1 cut??? I mean, this is an exercise in procedure. IMO, there's no reason the IP needs to make it as difficult as possible to the point of leaving themselves no room to recover.

Now, I admit, its always easy to 'second-guess', but I too have done in-plane training, in jets, as an IP. (at the time, FO's didn't go to sim), and our policy was..ok, planes climbing, there hasn't been a REAL engi. failure, no ones gonna die--- throttle idle... Let the calls begin....etc...

But, that's just me.

Agreed: if you chop a thrust lever right at V1, you're not simulating an emergency, you're creating an emergency.

As for the right position for the rudder pedals, just because you have full travel on the ground doesn't mean you'll be able to achieve full travel in the air. Pedal effort in the event of an engine failure can be considerable, and you might not have maximum effort if your pedals are too far forward.
This was an issue on the ERJ145. It's been a few years, but I seem to remember that tripping the rudder hardover protection required a pedal effort of 130lbs. That's going to be tough to do if your leg is already straight!

 

[DoinTime]

I've noticed an unusual phenomenon that I can't explain. Maybe I'm missing something...

Quite often, I will seat myself in the cockpit of a Canadair CRJ-200 shortly after another captain of approximately my height and leg proportions (I'm 6'0") has left. I will adjust the seat so that I can comfortably and confidently manipulate the yoke and throttles, sometimes even using the little "gunsight" on the windshield center post...only to find that the rudder pedals are cranked all the way back to my armpits.

Now my preference is to crank the pedals all the way to the stops away from me. I still have full rudder and brake authority, but my legs aren't bent at a sixty degree angle. And yet guys with legs the same length as mine are riding around with the pedals in their laps.

This is not a joke; I'm serious: is there some rule of jet rudder technique that I'm missing?

I began to wonder the same thing myself but after watching other peoples techniques I discovered that several people use a different ruder pedal/seat position for taxi than they do for flight. I've tried the technique and while access to the brakes is much easy with the pedals closer in and arm position on the tiller with the seat back further is more comfortable I just don't want to be bothered with changing my seating position prior to, or after, flight so I just use the one position that I fly in. So when you find the aircraft used by someone with this technique you are probably seeing their "taxi" position. To each their own.

 

[falcondriver]

V1 cuts are dangerous and we don't perform them in the aircraft any longer, only in the sim.
FD

 

[abev107]

So what happend to the 15 hour erj pilot that crashed? Can he continue to train at the point he was before or does he have to take some steps backward?

 

[Typhoon1244]

Typhoon 1244--the first time you lose an engine on takeoff or on climbout you will understand why most pilots keep the pedals up close--even if it means your legs are bent. I did this on every takeoff & climbout. In cruise I would slide my seat back, stretch my legs & relax.

You didn't read all of my post.

With the pedals rolled all the way forward, I still retain full rudder and brake authority. I've been doing it this way for five years, and no V1 cut (granted, in the simulator) has gotten the best of me yet.

Also--assuming the simulator is anywhere near accurate--V1 cuts in the CRJ are very gentle and do not require full rudder. In fact, I'm told by people who've done it for real that you can roll a CRJ into the good engine on climb-out using only the rudder. It's not like the Brakillya...excuse me, Brasilia, where you had to get both feet and one elbow on the opposite rudder to keep it going straight!

In one respect I am more paranoid than you, though. I don't crank my seat back at cruise if I'm the pilot flying. If we encounter, for example, severe clear air turbulence, or I need to maneuver to get a terrorist off his feet, I want the yoke, throttles, and autopilot disconnect switch easily and immediately accessible. It's the same reason I don't take my shoulder harness off, either. (I'm told my company is planning on making this policy anyway.)

But anyway, back to pedals. Y'all've answered my question. It's technique, pure and simple. I submit, however, that I'm better prepared for a V1 cut (in this airplane) if my legs are in a comfortable position regardless of how much rudder I'm using...as opposed to having my knees in my chest "just in case."

 

[tarp]

Technique and doctor's orders.

After $14,000 worth of back surgery ( and not a good back to start with), the two things the doc stressed over all is good lumbar support with the seat as upright as possible AND the "normal" sitting position should be knees above hips with the leg to never fully extend at ANY time. Ergo, the pedals stay close to my hips.

I complain just as much when I take over a plane from an 6'2" ex fighter jock where the seat is in full recline, the lumbar support is nowhere to be found and the pedals are out somewhere by the radome. I feel like I'm trying to get into a pool lounge chair.

And of course, both I (the "back problem") and Mr. Recline (the "fighter pilot") have to put up with the "high chair" where the old style CRJ handle doubles as a machete to split your head in half.