Jet for Jobs - NWA Airlinks

[JohnDoe]

Yes, there are still some red and green issues going on. Can't really comment too much on them, I'm not that familiar with it. I just continue to see it mentioned on the message board, and occasionally hear some pilots griping about it.


"I would expect the same "if" XJ and or PCL ever got a one list deal."

Yes, that could be interesting. A predominately turboprop list merged with a predominately turbojet list (and the associated payscales that go with the different types, kinda like the whole wide-body, narrow-body issue).

 

[avrodriverj85]

This one is for John Doe - just for a second let's put aside mainline vs regional and recognize that this can't be good for BOTH sides. I mean someone WILL take it in the shorts, and most likely it will be XJ and 9E. With this in mind, I thought it was ALPA's main responsibility to represent ALL of it's members equally and fairly? However, we all know it doesn't work this way.

Keep this in mind - you can fly those 70 seaters, but don't think for a minute you are going to just walk over to the XJ or 9E property and shove me out of the left seat without a fight, when you can't get everyone off furlough, (flying 70 seaters) and the NWA pilots want more of the pie.

We have reached a point where fair and equal representation doesn't apply to the regional pilot. Wake-up guys ! Stop dreaming of a seniority number at NWA. They are not going to give you one.

I feel like Noah warning my neighbors about the impending flood.

 

[727RedTails]

Hey Avrodriver,

Did you go to Mesaba thinking that would be your career? I hope not. Think about the fact that Mesaba is only in business to feed other airlines, (right now only nwa). That is your job! If you want to fly anything besides feeding other airlines leave Mesaba or talk your management into forming a new Independence Air. Then you can get all the 70 seaters you want.
The nwa pilots want to raise the bar for everyone including you. I have read the proposal. What is your proposal and how will it help our profession?

 

[JohnDoe]

You are right (and I'm sure you won't even believe that I am saying that). Somebody is going to take it "in the shorts." I too believe that Alpa cannot represent the interests of both mainline and regionals in the face of scope. The regionals, without a doubt, need their own union. Alot of people can see that, yet, in Alpa they remain. Also, when you say that Pinnacle and Mesaba are going to take it in the shorts, that implies that you believe the 70 seat flying is yours. Why is it anymore your's than mainline's?? Neither of you have had, or done, that size equipment flying (with the exception of the grandfathered avro's, and the current email specifically states "with the exception of the avros).

Another tidbit to add regarding scope: I find it ironic that you are screaming about scope, yet in your newest contract at Mesaba, you are scoping Big Sky from flying anything bigger than 19 seaters, I believe it is. Hey pot, this is the kettle......


"but don't think for a minute you are going to just walk over to the XJ or 9E property and shove me out of the left seat without a fight, when you can't get everyone off furlough"

Where on earth have you seen or read anything about shoving you out of your seat? From what I have read, the 70 seaters may not get everybody off of furlough. Even NW management has been quoted as saying the market for that size aircraft is not that large (Steenland said it I believe). Again, this is NOT a jet for jobs proposal. This is the NW MEC exercising their right to fly anything above 56 seats. A right that is in their contract. A contract agreed to by NW management. If you had that scope in your contracts, you would be doing the EXACT same thing.

As far as mainline vs regional........lets start calling it what it really is: Human vs. Human. Mainline vs regional is something people use to make their arguements look less selfish (on BOTH sides of the equation). Both groups, whether mainline or regional, represented by Alpa or other, are going to do what is in their best interest. Period. It is human nature. Anybody that says different is either living in la-la land, or is trying to make their cause look good.

 

[dondk]

Where on earth have you seen or read anything about shoving you out of your seat? From what I have read, the 70 seaters may not get everybody off of furlough. Even NW management has been quoted as saying the market for that size aircraft is not that large (Steenland said it I believe).

Depending on the staffing, it will solve most of the furloghee problem. 72 jets should cover at least a good 750 pilots, add planned retirements in the next 2-3 years, maybe a few handfulls may be left. I may be wrong, but I thought NWA only had just over 900 left on the street.

I don't quite buy there is not enough market for 70 seater's.. There are markets, the question is profitability. The same argument was used for CRJ's, Avro's and baby 9's... There are plenty of markets that need more than a CRJ and less than a baby 9. There are also markets where a baby 9 is overkill and we know which markets those are.

The Avro is great on certain markets, but if you add the range that the CRJ-700 will have to the Avro I am sure NWA marketing will find places for it to go. I find it funny how NWA always finds new markets for various equipment types.

The Airlink's do feed mainline flying.. that is something that seems to be forgotten by mainline pilot's.. We are all in this together... but as it was simply stated.. someone ( a group) is going to take it in the shorts..

 

[avrodriverj85]

Hey Avrodriver,

Did you go to Mesaba thinking that would be your career? I hope not.

Well no I didn't, but industry circumstance has created a glut and I am here to stay for awhile. But, am I suppose to sacrifice to protect your job at mainline? I don't think so.

Think about the fact that Mesaba is only in business to feed other airlines, (right now only nwa). That is your job! If you want to fly anything besides feeding other airlines leave Mesaba or talk your management into forming a new Independence Air. Then you can get all the 70 seaters you want.
The nwa pilots want to raise the bar for everyone including you. I have read the proposal. What is your proposal and how will it help our profession?

It's ironic that when times are good, you mainline guys are running around calling the CRJ's - smurf jets, barbie jets, etc. But when the crap is hitting the fan, all of a sudden those barbie jets look pretty tasty and you want a piece of the action. You're right, XJ is here to feed mainline, but as a professional pilot it's not my job to protect your job when you lose it. If you wanna play it that way, bring us all on the same seniority and we'll let the chips fall where they may...

 

[AnimalTale]

The only way to look is this is - us vs. them. NWA vs NWA Airlinks. If this agreement were to go thru, it threatens our growth and our future. Brand scope within the NWA family is an ALPA myth.

I think u r right. Be glad u work under NWA, rather than the black widow, UAL. At least the nwa mec, "thinks about" their feeders.

Also, remember your future and growth is limited at MEASABA or PCL. Your flying is there because of NWA. Your PAX are there because of NWA. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, you are flying because u r a staffing company. NWA is outsourcing "THEIR" flying to MESABA and PCL for cheaper labor.

Do not get me wrong< i have been at the regionals for many years. I think regional pilots are very good pilots but low payed pilots. Your future is brighter trying to get out and flying for the likes of SWA, FDX NWA etc (when they do start hiiring)

With 70 seaters at NWA, u will have a better chance to leave the "commutters" for a better lifestyle, if u want.

I am not flaim bating, these are the cold hard facts. Your future and growth are directly linked to NWA. They could dump u in a second, but NWA-MEC will not have that. (I flew with Westair, Ual dumped us without any opposition from mainline: NWA-MEC is different, trust me)

Adios-

 

[AnimalTale]

It's ironic that when times are good, you mainline guys are running around calling the CRJ's - smurf jets, barbie jets, etc. But when the crap is hitting the fan, all of a sudden those barbie jets look pretty tasty and you want a piece of the action. You're right, XJ is here to feed mainline, but as a professional pilot it's not my job to protect your job when you lose it. If you wanna play it that way, bring us all on the same seniority and we'll let the chips fall where they may...

I am not a mainline guy. So, nobody owes u a job! And CRJs are SMURF JETS. But when u have SMURF jets in at a mainline carrier, u get 17 days off consistently and your quality of life is better, guaranteed.

Put a 172 on at mainline and I will fly it. I promise u, MAinline flying is 10x better than regional flying. Especially that of PCL. 10 days off on reserve? 6 leg days? 12 hour duty days? threat of being dumped from express status? short overnnites? etc. Need I go on!

Oh by the way, because I do not fly for a major, I can say this. No matter how much a pillot says right now"I dont want to fly for the MAJORS" or " I decided to stay here because I knew the majors are in trouble" . The pilot is full of crap! At one point of time that pilot had a desire for a richer carreer (probably got rejected or did not get an interview) and now is pretending he/she never wanted a carreer in the majors.

Adios

 

[dondk]

I think u r right. Be glad u work under NWA, rather than the black widow, UAL. At least the nwa mec, "thinks about" their feeders.

Also, remember your future and growth is limited at MEASABA or PCL. Your flying is there because of NWA. Your PAX are there because of NWA. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, you are flying because u r a staffing company. NWA is outsourcing "THEIR" flying to MESABA and PCL for cheaper labor.

Your right to a point.. the aircraft they own (majority of them), some of the routes "they" own, some of the stations "they" own. Both Mesaba and PCL have their own stations, own routes that are XJ/9E specific, not owned by NWA.

Would we be in a world of hurt is NWA MEC pulled the plug? Absolutely, but then again so would NWA management. Unfortunately for NWA, XJ/9E are a necessary evil, we go places they cannot put a DC-9 into, we go places that cannot support mainline staffing ($$$$- stations and flight operation personnel). The stations/routes I am talking about do generate some significant income and market share (for the station/route). NWA is not likely to give up on market share when there are plenty of LCC's (and others) looking to take it away from NWA. Could we be replaced by NWA people? Surely, if NWA wanted to hire anymore people, which they don't. Could they ramp up and replace us completely? sure... but at what cost? Your right it is about the bottom dollar and we (airlinks) are cheaper. Being cheaper has its rewards for NWA though.. it is called profit... XJ/PCL have been turning some serious profits for NWA for sometime now.

With 70 seaters at NWA, u will have a better chance to leave the "commutters" for a better lifestyle, if u want.

At what price though? If NWA MEC finds a happy medium with management over the 70 seat issue.. every other major who has 70 seat aircraft in their regional fleet will be looking to do the same. All it will do is swap the mainline pilots on furlough to regional pilots on furlough.

Where could I go for a better lifestyle? No one is hiring in droves and if and when it does happen it is not going to be any of the majors. My lifestyle for the next 5 years is to position my current employer so I can have a better lifestyle than what I currently have.

I am not a mainline guy. So, nobody owes u a job! And CRJs are SMURF JETS. But when u have SMURF jets in at a mainline carrier, u get 17 days off consistently and your quality of life is better, guaranteed.

MAinline flying is 10x better than regional flying. Especially that of PCL. 10 days off on reserve? 6 leg days? 12 hour duty days? threat of being dumped from express status? short overnnites? etc. Need I go on!

While I work at an airlink.. I currently hold 17 days off, while I will agree the money could be better.. I hold better trips and days off than my counterparts at mainline. Those whom I know at mainline have less days off, the same lousy overnights (yes, they have crappy ovenights too, it is a NWA marketing thing) and while they don't do 6 leg days, they do 4 day trips for the same value I do in 3 days. I net an extra day off and they net time wandering in the terminal or at the hotel at those garden spots like BIS/LEX/ABE.

The difference between NWA mainline and the Airlinks is work rules and salary in a nutshell. We both have crappy schedules, we both fly to some garden spots, we both have short overnights and while we (airlinks) get the threats, mainline get's hit up for 1 billion dollars in concessions... No difference in my book.

The benefit.. the work rules/pay rates may increase in the RJ world, the price though will be paid by the regional pilots going to the unemployment line.

 

[JohnDoe]

Hey avrodriver:
I answered your question, so how about you answer mine (or are you only capable of spewing factless, emotion-based propaganda??) Exactly why do you feel the 70 seaters belong to Mesaba and Pinnacle?? You have never (except for the few avros) done that kind of flying, and nothing is being taken away from you. How is mainline doing the 70 seat flying screwing the Airlink's?? Unless something changes with mainline's contract, you wouldn't be getting it anyway.


quote:
"It's ironic that when times are good, you mainline guys are running around calling the CRJ's - smurf jets, barbie jets, etc. But when the crap is hitting the fan, all of a sudden those barbie jets look pretty tasty and you want a piece of the action."

Again, to this, I will say what I said before: Horsesh!t! A good portion of mainline newhires (everywhere) hired prior to the furloughs came from the regionals, and to imply that they (or anyone) wouldn't want to "lower" themselves and fly a CRJ is absurd. If the pay and workrules are right, I'd go back to flying a 172.


Finally, you should go back and read both of "AnimalTale's" posts 3 or 4 times. They hit the nail on the head.

 

[JohnDoe]

dondk:
"I don't quite buy there is not enough market for 70 seater's.. There are markets, the question is profitability. The same argument was used for CRJ's, Avro's and baby 9's... There are plenty of markets that need more than a CRJ and less than a baby 9. There are also markets where a baby 9 is overkill and we know which markets those are."


I agree with you for the most part (although I think the 90-100 seat is the greater market). Could be it was just smoke being blown around, who knows. But it has been discussed as an issue.

 

[Humty72]

I may be wrong, but I thought NWA only had just over 900 left on the street.

.

782 on the street...

 

[flap operator]

Surplus 1 - you obviously didn't get the sarcasm in my post... regarding OUR best interests. I know very well that the NWA pilots care ZERO about what happens at XJ or PNCL. We all realize that... we are REGIONAL pilots and remember that everyday we go to work.

This issue is a huge sharp double edged sword. We need jobs at the mainlines for our future, but the mainlines are the ones controling our carreer progression as we speak.

I'm just going to sit back and watch it unfold. Then form an opinion when all the information is out. Until then... have fun with the speculation conspiracy theory posts.

FO

 

[avrodriverj85]

Hey avrodriver:
I answered your question, so how about you answer mine (or are you only capable of spewing factless, emotion-based propaganda??) Exactly why do you feel the 70 seaters belong to Mesaba and Pinnacle?? You have never (except for the few avros) done that kind of flying, and nothing is being taken away from you. How is mainline doing the 70 seat flying screwing the Airlink's?? Unless something changes with mainline's contract, you wouldn't be getting it anyway.


John - Here's your answer... by NWA pilots flying the 70 seater, it effects my companys growth and future. Haven't you been following the RJDC? And besides, are you implying that because we have not flown 70 seaters, we are somehow incapable or inexperienced to do the job? I know that baby 9' or ORJ (original regional jet) is so high-tech, but give me a break!


If the pay and workrules are right, I'd go back to flying a 172.

Yeah, sure you would. Your ego wouldn't allow it.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"And besides, are you implying that because we have not flown 70 seaters, we are somehow incapable or inexperienced to do the job? I know that baby 9' or ORJ (original regional jet) is so high-tech, but give me a break!"


Boy......you just latch onto any little tidbit and try to turn it into a sensationalized piece of writing don't you (the national inquirer and other gossip magazines would be proud of you).

You know darn well by my phrase "haven't done that kind of flying" I am referring to the 70 seat MARKET flying. After all, that is what we are talking about right? If you had read my other post, you would have seen the same thing there. I am referring to the fact that you haven't been given any 70 seat flying, therefore you aren't losing anything. That statement has absolutely nothing to do with flying ability, or inexperience, one aircraft being harder to fly than another, or anything of that sort (and most rational people would have seen that).

As far as your answer about not getting 70 seat flying, and it affecting your companies growth and future: well, that is a given now isn't it. It explains why you are upset about it, but it doesn't explain why you think it "belongs" to Airlink and not mainline. If it was 80 seat flying, would that belong to you as well? How about 100 seat flying? You get what you can negotiate for. Mainline was successful in negotiating anything over 56 seats.

If the roles were reversed, your union and company would be doing EXACTLY the same thing. Again, I'm sure you don't have a problem with the scope you were able to negotiate for against Big Sky.

Now, onto my supposed ego.....I am guessing that you wrote that in response to my alleged "bashing" of pilot skills, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one. But I don't recall displaying any source of "mainline" or any other arrogance at all.

The only solution I see to the "separate companies with different contracts with significantly different benefits being represented by the same union" problem is to not have separate companies. But I think we all know that it will be a cold day in hades (sp) before management allows that to happen.