Jet Blue

[wndshr]

i don't know...my opinion...the litmus (sp?) test to determine if it is a fair "contract" at jetblue is....

is there a union so far? with over 1000 pilots and no union, yet, seems like an ok place to be considering the rest of the industry. of course i would expect to see many disgruntled IF we were enjoying record profits industry-wide!

 

[klhoard]

..><snip>. . of course i would expect to see many disgruntled IF we were enjoying record profits industry-wide!

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You've hit the nail right on the head, Sir!!!
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[wndshr]

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You've hit the nail right on the head, Sir!!!
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now 32000 hours!!! LOL!

 

[GVFlyer]

Happy people & unhappy people in the same company, I think that would apply to every company in the world...

Mike, if you think about it for a minute, I bet you can come up with several companies where everybody is unhappy.

GV

 

[MajorAv8r]

Thank you Blue Dude for the last post with answers.

I realize that Jet Blue takes a lot of heat for perceptually being the "bottom of the heap" and bringing everyone down. I know that it is mismanagement that has done this, not any specific pilot group. Duh. But your airline is listed by others in backruptcy as the target point for contract reductions, like it or not, it is a fact.

And if it isn't moving down, then why say we are going cut $325M or $500M by shooting for another carriers contract. A cut in the contract means loss of QOL, pay. So it is a move down. I don't think poorly of your group, you all are doing what the rest of us try to do, put food on the table, bottom line.

I guess a better question is where will the others have to go to be "cost competitive" in relation to issues, other than pay? I thought that the work rules at a so called major would not be worse than a regional, just curious to see if that holds true.

 

[wndshr]

Thank you Blue Dude for the last post with answers.

I realize that Jet Blue takes a lot of heat for perceptually being the "bottom of the heap" and bringing everyone down. I know that it is mismanagement that has done this, not any specific pilot group. Duh. But your airline is listed by others in backruptcy as the target point for contract reductions, like it or not, it is a fact.

And if it isn't moving down, then why say we are going cut $325M or $500M by shooting for another carriers contract. A cut in the contract means loss of QOL, pay. So it is a move down. I don't think poorly of your group, you all are doing what the rest of us try to do, put food on the table, bottom line.

I guess a better question is where will the others have to go to be "cost competitive" in relation to issues, other than pay? I thought that the work rules at a so called major would not be worse than a regional, just curious to see if that holds true.

i think another way of looking at it is that the legacy carrier management needs 325M or 500M to subsidize their poor management decisions. those companies would still lose money if their pilots work for free! CEO's are managing your expectations ( quite well, too!) to distract the employee groups from the real issues. POOR MANAGEMENT DECISIONS!

how well do you think we would accept this quote from our legacy CEO's...

"....well guys/gals, thanks for coming to our meeting today. i just have to be honest with you all. i have made some very poor decisions in the past 6 years that have brought us to bankruptcy. unfortunately, there are better CEO's out there running other airlines such as SWA, JetBlue, AirTran...In an effort for me to try and stay competitive with my collegues at these carriers, you will have to sacrifice 50% of your pay. folks, even this may not keep us alive, but it is the only way i see it....and my 8 year old daughter agrees. your dedication is what makes this...errr...airline what it is today, i think? Please don't worry about me or the rest of the management team. We have an executive retention plan that guarantees retirement benefits for us. We thank you employees for understanding that going and getting an MBA from Cracker Jack Univ is a valuable commodity!"

bottom line: when management is talking....step back from the front row to get the bigger picture.

 

[bluejuice787]

Thank you Blue Dude for the last post with answers.

I realize that Jet Blue takes a lot of heat for perceptually being the "bottom of the heap" and bringing everyone down. I know that it is mismanagement that has done this, not any specific pilot group. Duh. But your airline is listed by others in backruptcy as the target point for contract reductions, like it or not, it is a fact.

And if it isn't moving down, then why say we are going cut $325M or $500M by shooting for another carriers contract. A cut in the contract means loss of QOL, pay. So it is a move down. I don't think poorly of your group, you all are doing what the rest of us try to do, put food on the table, bottom line.

I guess a better question is where will the others have to go to be "cost competitive" in relation to issues, other than pay? I thought that the work rules at a so called major would not be worse than a regional, just curious to see if that holds true.

Major8-

I would say your post was relevant if you could quantify trust.

Perhaps I do not fit the demagraphic of simply trying to "put food on the table". I came to JB because the quality of life is rather good. In fact I would go so far as to say that our overall quality of life is better than most every carrier in the US. This from day one. There is a reason our contract is very thin and that reason is trust...

Frankly, I do not give a crap if Mgts. all over the place use our contract as a barometer because you simply cannot replicate the synergy of trust. We are five years old and yet if you were to compare W2s from our guys to any other pilot group for their first five years I bet we come out on top. Yes we temper our greed with the idea that we can upgrade in short order. That is because we live in a free market society. I personally do not want to put JB out of business but rather I want to see JB kick all of your collective a$$es.

I think that is where the real hate for JB comes...because you see us comming to kick a$$....and we are.

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

Some things to keep in mind……

JetBlue is 5 years old. B6 has grown into a major airline during a time which most would consider to be the worst down cycle in the history of the industry.

MajorAv8r, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so all I can do is give you mine. I have been very happy at JetBlue, and I’d say that 99% of the people I fly with have also been very happy here. I find that most people who talk down on B6 are usually misinformed, uninformed, or disgruntled.

I came from a regional airline with a union. I can tell you that life here is MUCH better. In my opinion a union is not necessary here at this point in time. B6 has a level of trust between the crew members and management that is virtually unheard of at most carriers. Many pilots at other carriers do not, and may not understand this. Now should this level of trust be broken down, then I don’t think we’d have a problem getting a union. But I think I speak for most of us when I say that we hope to continue and improve upon this level of trust.

As far as schedules go, I find them to be productive for the most part. But I also think that they tend to be what you make of them. It is a preference bid system based on seniority. I have had schedules as low as 14 days off with 85 hours, and as high as 18 days off with 93 hours. Although seniority dictates what you are awarded, you can always “tweek” your schedule after the awards by adding, dropping, swapping, or trading through open time. It is a very user friendly system.

We are a growing company, and we try and improve on what we already have. It takes time. One can’t start an airline with industry leading pay and work rules. But I can honestly say that we have it pretty good, and I am confident it will only get better.

I think that people lose sight of the fact that we are all pilots working toward having a good career……….no matter what paint scheme is on the side of the airplane. You were curious as to “how bad it really is.” Well I’m telling you “how good it really is,” and with just 5 years under our belt.

 

[Blue Dude]

Thank you Blue Dude for the last post with answers.

I realize that Jet Blue takes a lot of heat for perceptually being the "bottom of the heap" and bringing everyone down. I know that it is mismanagement that has done this, not any specific pilot group. Duh. But your airline is listed by others in backruptcy as the target point for contract reductions, like it or not, it is a fact.

And if it isn't moving down, then why say we are going cut $325M or $500M by shooting for another carriers contract. A cut in the contract means loss of QOL, pay. So it is a move down. I don't think poorly of your group, you all are doing what the rest of us try to do, put food on the table, bottom line.

I guess a better question is where will the others have to go to be "cost competitive" in relation to issues, other than pay? I thought that the work rules at a so called major would not be worse than a regional, just curious to see if that holds true.

I thought I was very clear: JetBlue's contract is completely unsuitable for another carrier. Your management is using JetBlue's contract as a goal not because it's scraping the bottom of the barrel in and of itself, but because it would afford them incredible latitude for further abuse of your pilots. There are plenty of schedules and scenarios that are "legal" under our pay and work rules that would make this job absolute living hell, but you don't see them here because there is mutual trust and respect. (That and the pilots build the schedules). The same rules under another administration would likely create that hell in short order. So life at JetBlue is not good or bad on the strength of the contract and work rules, but rather the way they are implemented.

In addition, JetBlue pilots have a hammer that you don't, namely the fact that we are *not* unionized. You see, there is a lot of flexibility inherent in the work rules, and that flexibility allows JetBlue management to steer the airline very nimbly in an operational sense. A union contract would likely put a straightjacket on both management and the union, and measureably slow down the airline's response to external factors. Any abuse on the part of management, and the pilots could well decide to organize, and then one important competitive advantage goes away, in no small part because the collaborative atmosphere would vanish. Nobody wants that. A lot of pilots wrongly assume that only a union can keep management honest, but the mere possibility of organizing is also a powerful check on abuse. In fact, it may be a better check than a union itself since it's based on the perception of fairness and genuine satisfaction rather than merely the letter of the agreement. There is much more likelihood of going above and beyond - on the part of both the pilots and management - in such an environment.

I shudder to imagine what another "management" team could do with just the letter of this agreement to hold them back. They would never gain the competitive benefits of JetBlue's contract, only temporary monetary benefits. A company's performance really does reflect the character of the management team, and I'm afraid yours would just try to grind you underfoot for a couple more cents per share earnings rather than use our agreement for its intended purpose.

 

[fifty30retard]

Thank you Blue Dude for the last post with answers.

I realize that Jet Blue takes a lot of heat for perceptually being the "bottom of the heap" and bringing everyone down. I know that it is mismanagement that has done this, not any specific pilot group. Duh. But your airline is listed by others in backruptcy as the target point for contract reductions, like it or not, it is a fact.

And if it isn't moving down, then why say we are going cut $325M or $500M by shooting for another carriers contract. A cut in the contract means loss of QOL, pay. So it is a move down. I don't think poorly of your group, you all are doing what the rest of us try to do, put food on the table, bottom line.

I guess a better question is where will the others have to go to be "cost competitive" in relation to issues, other than pay? I thought that the work rules at a so called major would not be worse than a regional, just curious to see if that holds true.

What will management do for a comparison when JetBlue loses money for the fourth quarter? In fact JetBlue is supposed to show a loss for the full year.

 

[wndshr]

What will management do for a comparison when JetBlue loses money for the fourth quarter? In fact JetBlue is supposed to show a loss for the full year.

didn't you get the memo?

they are terminating those of us that have exceeded our five year contract and if we want we will be recycled to FO's on the E190 at starting pay! it is in the small print. i always wanted to fly that thing though....it'll be so cool!

LOL