Jet Blue interview

[wndshr]

Just nimrods like you suggesting we are all lucky to have jobs and should be happy to fly for free.

What about you?

FJ

can you quote me cargo boy?

 

[Falconjet]

Quote from wndshr:

""EXCELLENT ADVICE!!! flying planes should be done for FUN...not for MONEY, a second source of income should pay the bills. this way you will continue to love flying and it will not be the only source of income if the flight doc decides you are done! unfortunately, that happens to pilots flying for the most stable, lucrative and profitable airlines/companies!""

I don't know how to do it the fancy way some of you guys do, but this is copied from your post in this thread. It follows several from you and your alter ego, pilotyip, who seem to think that we should all be flying for about 10 bucks and hour.

Funny, I don't hear AA or AAA ball players complaining that the guys in the majors are making too much money or that X amount of money is enough for somebody to be making because they play baseball and its fun work. No, they negotiate for every dime they can and even withold their services sometimes when the price isn't high enough.

I don't understand why pilots insist on selling themselves short and thinking that we are so lucky to get paid anything at all to do what we love. Sure I love flying, but I don't fly for myself, I fly when and where the company tells me to and they better pay me pretty well to do it or I will go find something else to do.

If you are wealthy enough to fly for a hobby, good on you, knock yourself out and have fun. But most pilots fly to make money and feed the family. To categorize our profession and livelihood as something we should only do for fun and not pay is demeaning to us and the profession.

FJ

 

[Mamma]

Amen Falconjet! According to some, I could just get on with Kirby Vacuums or Quickstar (Amway) for my real job and just be gone half the month doing my "fun" flying. Folks need to wake up to the fact that this is a profession not a hobby and if you negotiate yourself away as an expendable hobbiest then that is what you will end up as. I say have fun and make it your hobby when you retire from your real job flying for money.

 

[wndshr]

""EXCELLENT ADVICE!!! flying planes should be done for FUN...not for MONEY, a second source of income should pay the bills. this way you will continue to love flying and it will not be the only source of income if the flight doc decides you are done! unfortunately, that happens to pilots flying for the most stable, lucrative and profitable airlines/companies!""

I don't know how to do it the fancy way some of you guys do, but this is copied from your post in this thread. It follows several from you and your alter ego, pilotyip, who seem to think that we should all be flying for about 10 bucks and hour.

Funny, I don't hear AA or AAA ball players complaining that the guys in the majors are making too much money or that X amount of money is enough for somebody to be making because they play baseball and its fun work. No, they negotiate for every dime they can and even withold their services sometimes when the price isn't high enough.

I don't understand why pilots insist on selling themselves short and thinking that we are so lucky to get paid anything at all to do what we love. Sure I love flying, but I don't fly for myself, I fly when and where the company tells me to and they better pay me pretty well to do it or I will go find something else to do.

If you are wealthy enough to fly for a hobby, good on you, knock yourself out and have fun. But most pilots fly to make money and feed the family. To categorize our profession and livelihood as something we should only do for fun and not pay is demeaning to us and the profession.

FJ

umm...didn't see flying for free anywhere in that quote, unless i need new reading glasses. first of all you are a Cargo Employee (if your profile is correct?). i am talking to Airline pilots. airline pilots should try to position themselves to fly for FUN and not the MONEY. REASON? Instability! Now for Cargo that is not necessarily the case. If I were addressing cargo folks(in a cargo forum) I would be all for get as much pay as you can...after all, cargo has no CASM/RASM it has some other economic measure per ton or something i don't know.

comparing the domestic airline industry and its economic environment to the freight world is pretty stupid don't you think? when you make out the pro/con list of flying pax or cargo that is probably on the list don't you think? hmmm...boxes are not as price sensitive as people; now are they? in bad economic times cargo seems to be recession proof; now doesn't it? so how can you (a cargo employee) compare apples to apples? the point of my post that you eagerly quoted can be paraphrased in the last paragraph you wrote:

i could have used your quote...and addressed it specifically to airline pilots should strive to fly for fun and learn a second career that they can fall back on in case the airline industry bites you in a downturn. sure, fight for all the pay you can at the airline level...seems to me that is market driven don't you think? i don't mean this to demean our profession...i hope this inspires those folks who HAVEN"T been furloughed or terminated to use those 15 days off a month for something constructive. there are tons of opportunities out there that pay as much and a lot more than the most lucrative flying jobs! you just have to break out of the paradigm of being the worker bee (pilot) who works for the queen bee (CEO's). The queen bees are always going to live large!

Actually, I think that although cargo is relatively insulated in an economic sense, you all have the same risks of losing medicals as we do in the airline biz. Therefore, my argument extends to cargo as well! I bet your union has some figures on the percentage of early medical leaves to age 60 retirements don't they? Take that percentage and see if you want to bet a career on that kind of risk?

But if you disagree with me and think that flying should be the ONLY source of income in your family...and you are willing to accept ALL the risks of career ending situations...by all means, GO FOR IT! however, i would bet my house your significant other would agree with me!

 

[wndshr]

........ Folks need to wake up to the fact that this is a profession not a hobby and if you negotiate yourself away as an expendable hobbiest then that is what you will end up as. I say have fun and make it your hobby when you retire from your real job flying for money.

oops...i missed the memo stating that organized labor was in a good bargaining position in today's economic environment! your response is a lot easier said than done while watching from the sidelines!

 

[AlbieF15]

Wndshr,

As a pilot who flies for fun (a Navion Rangemaster), fun/duty (an F15), and money (as a cargo pilot), I see some of your points. I also faced losing my medical earlier this year and had major surgery. You have some valid points.

Also...I like your side business/other options mantra, and it works for me. However--the world if also full of failed businesses and projects started by airline pilots who didn't have the time/skill/follow through or just plain luck to make things work. Not everyone can or will make a killing in their other gig...

However--if you want to get into a joust about "airline pilots" verses "cargo pilots", you might want to ask yourself a few questions. First--who is "holding the bar" on wages right now and fighting for better contracts? It ain't the pax guys--its UPS and FDX. We all win when we stick together. Second--I'd say its a safe bet right now the 4600 or so FDX pilots are putting more money into ALPA than a lot of other carriers. Do you want us to split and go be "cargo" pilots by ourselves or continue to fund ALPA projects that help ALL of us likley safety, labor and scope contracts, etc etc. Anyone who has seen me post knows I hate mil/civilian, AF/Navy, Independent union/ALPA rifts--they are a waste of time and resources. I firmly believe that if WE stick up for each other in the profession we can all benefit. I hope you love your job--I know I love mine. I also know we can help each other a lot more if we find our common ground and try to stick together...

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Actually, I think that although cargo is relatively insulated in an economic sense, you all have the same risks of losing medicals as we do in the airline biz. Therefore, my argument extends to cargo as well! I bet your union has some figures on the percentage of early medical leaves to age 60 retirements don't they? Take that percentage and see if you want to bet a career on that kind of risk?

But if you disagree with me and think that flying should be the ONLY source of income in your family...and you are willing to accept ALL the risks of career ending situations...by all means, GO FOR IT! however, i would bet my house your significant other would agree with me!

I'll take that bet wndshr. Apparently you haven't heard of L-O-N-G T-E-R-M D-I-S-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y insurance. Currently $120k per year at UPS (federal tax free) with no restrictions on employment in another occupation ... heck you could work at Home Depot and between the two come close to your average FO's pay. It would be about a $100k hit for most current Capts, but doable with some downsizing and belt tightening.

Your point about not placing all your eggs in the airline basket is well taken though ... and a good one. Just wanted to point out that most airline pilots have thought about (and purchased insurance for protection from) the possibility of losing one's medical.

PS. PM me for instructions on where to send your deed!

BBB

 

[Falconjet]

wndshr

wndshr: Ok, you said: "flying planes should be done for FUN...not for MONEY"

I guess I read that as flying for free, since as I see it if you are flying for fun and not money, you are flying for FREE. I guess you didn't really mean that, or you are backpedaling as fast as you can in an effort to save face. Sure sounds like flying for free to me.

So be it. Sure we should all have a back up plan. Insurance can be a backup plan, so can a military retirement, spouse who works, or having a side business. Great. Or you could be indepently wealthy. All the more power to you. That doesn't change the fact that most people who fly (particularly those who frequent this majors board) are doing so to make money at it.

Yes the industry could dry up and go away tomorrow, and then we would have to see who could adapt and survive in the new world. Happens to folks all the time in different industries. I am ready, I hope you are too.

All beside the point. Flying is a job, and it should pay well. There are risks and downsides to flying and they should be rewarded. Just the fact that you can loose your medical tomorrow and we can only fly until age 60 should justify the need for higher wages to compensate for a limited time career. We should be getting paid more, not less, to spend holidays on the road and missing have of our family's lives.

I guess you can just refuse to believe that, and figure that its ok to fly as a hobby for jB or somebody else for 30K per year. You are entitled to that opinion, just as I am entitled to think you are shortsighted and simplistic if you do.

Guess I am the one with the warped sense of reality because I think we should get paid (and paid well) to fly airplanes for a living.

Now about the hangup you seem to have about me flying for a GLOBAL, part 121, Major, scheduled air carrier that happens to fly boxes instead of people: considering your level of comprehension about why most people are in the industry (ie to make money doing a job they have trained their whole life for and accept considerable risk and personal sacrifices to do so), I certainly don't expect you to understand this simple fact. FedEx pilots are just as much airline pilots as any the pilots at any other company that happens to fly people. Get over it.

FJ

 

[Falconjet]

And another thing: Your post looks like you are attributing to me the quote I made of your post. Please change that so people don't think I was the one who thinks that its ok to fly for free.

Thanks.

FJ

 

[wndshr]

hey fellas...

no disrespect to cargo pilots...you are trained and come from the same background as airline guys...you are missing my point in trying to DIFFERENTIATE the economics of the two INDUSTRIES.

I hope i don't offend anyone else, but i will use this analogy for now on since i can't seem to make my point clear to everyone. airline guys are the ones holding real estate in New Orleans, and we are trying to sell our homes. Cargo is holding real estate in CA. we are all trying to get top dollar (falconjet that one is for you!! yes, i would love to make 1 MIIIIIIILLLLION dollars an hour) but, people are laughing at the asking price for my real estate in N.O. (airline management in regards to pay) funny thing but everyone in my neighborhood is selling their home too! (most airlines in bankruptcy or losing money) now the real estate in CA is holding steady...(cargo situation seems stable) you can afford to sit and wait it out and enjoy far more bargaining power! (higher paying contracts)

my point is that i get frustrated when someone who has a CA property tells me that i should be getting top dollar for my N.O. real estate, and that i am bringing down the market (flying for free, lowering the bar, etc etc etc) my question to all of these guys "when was the last time you visited my neighborhood?"(airline industry) they reply.."never seen it!" (of course you work cargo and are enjoying good times)

now since i live in N.O. (airline folks) i am just trying to let people know that although we LOVE living in N.O.(airline flying) now is not the best time to get top dollar for your property.( our salary) if you must sell, we are not in a great bargaining position. (union contract negotiations) god forbid we cannot afford the mortgage and we get forclosed (airline bankruptcy/liquidation).

we have a few choices...we can stay in N.O. (at airlines) and wait for the rebuilding and the economics to come back...and hope they will stay...or we can punch out and move to CA. (fly cargo, corporate, new career etc) some will move and some will stay. i choose to stay because i love N.O. and i have way too many years invested in this gig. BUT..i happened to learn the hard way that having rental homes in other parts of the country (second source of income) is a good hedge to have in case i get the call and the sheriff kicks me out of my N.O house! (airline files for liquidation)

so...my opinion is to enjoy my home in N.O. (fly for fun). hope the pricing power and economics return to my home in N.O. (airlines become healthy again and profitable). however, if that never happens (my airline liquidates, lose my medical etc etc) i will have plenty of options for places to move my family (second source of income).

ok...i did the best i could to make my point! hope it is clear??