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Jet Blue and Thrust Reversers

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shon7

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2002
Posts
423
I flew on B6 for the first time this weekend SEA-JFK. Strangely enough on both landings no Thrust Reversers were used. The langing at JFK was an autoland with wings gusting upto 40kts. However, on the way back I'm pretty sure it was manual.

Is there a policy Jet Blue has with the use of the reversers.
 
How do you know the landing in JFK was an autoland? Did you ask the crew. Did you check the WX yourself? I don't know of a single aircraft that can autoland in wind conditions like the ones you posted. Most autoland limits for wind are headwind 20-25/crosswind 15/tailwind 10 knots.

As for the reverse thing, there could be many reasons. Our 777 guys don't use reverse unless needed in order to increase brake life by using the autobrakes.

IAHERJ
 
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Shon7:

Not sure what kind of equipment you have flown, but there are several reasons that guys don't use reversers sometimes:

You ever flown an American Eagle ERJ? Eagle ERJ don't use reverse at all, unless departure form the runway is imminent. Eagle (and other companies I know) claim that the carbon brakes last longer if they get extremely hot.

MEL'd. I've flown a couple of boeings and a CRJ that had one, or both, reversers pinned shut for maintenance purposes.

Those are just two reasons I can think of, and I'm sure there's more.

And like the other guy said, what makes you think one leg was an autoland and the other wasn't?
 
shon7 said:
I flew on B6 for the first time this weekend SEA-JFK. Strangely enough on both landings no Thrust Reversers were used. The langing at JFK was an autoland with wings gusting upto 40kts. However, on the way back I'm pretty sure it was manual.

Is there a policy Jet Blue has with the use of the reversers.

Bottom line is that reversers don't really do a whole lot other than make noise and scare the customers and airport birds. Idle reverse is also more friendly to the environment.

We use idle reverse as standard practice, but more is always available if needed. For example, full reverse is always used at Burbank.
 
Apparently we have a contract for the brakes that is at a fixed price regardless of how much the brakes are used, so the autobrakes are used more to help conserve engine wear. Full reverse is expected to be used if needed.

As far as the winds and the autoland, the headwind limit is 30 knots steady. The gusts exceeding 30 knots are permitted.

Mike
 
As repeated, idle reverse is preferred on all landings with the exception to BUR where MED brakes and full reverse is applied. In the SOPs, for landings on contaminated runways, LO brakes and reverse is recommended.
 
Thanks for your replies.

IAHERJ -- in response to your question about how I was certain it was an Autloand -- as we were exiting the Captain was at the door thanking us for flying B6. I complimented him on his landing whereby he mentioned the autoland and was joking saying "its a hit or miss either way."
 
Cool. He must have more faith in the autoland capabilities of the A-320 than I have in the aircraft I've flown with autoland. Sounds like a fun trip. It was a good question as most airlines do use reverse on most fleet types.

IAHERJ
 
Capn Mike said:
Apparently we have a contract for the brakes that is at a fixed price regardless of how much the brakes are used, so the autobrakes are used more to help conserve engine wear. Full reverse is expected to be used if needed.

Use of TRs has a negligible effect on engine wear and tear. Not sure where you learned this.
 
shon7 said:
I flew on B6 for the first time this weekend SEA-JFK. Strangely enough on both landings no Thrust Reversers were used. The langing at JFK was an autoland with wings gusting upto 40kts. However, on the way back I'm pretty sure it was manual.

Is there a policy Jet Blue has with the use of the reversers.

--------
 
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miles otoole said:
Use of TRs has a negligible effect on engine wear and tear. Not sure where you learned this.
AB slows the A/C at a specific rate, no?
More brake, less thrust=lower EGT=longer engine life.
I have a negative opinion regarding not using reverse thrust, but not for this reason.
 
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IAHERJ said:
Cool. He must have more faith in the autoland capabilities of the A-320 than I have in the aircraft I've flown with autoland.
Well, when it's 600-600-600, do you have much more than faith for backup?
Aside from monitoring the LOC and GS and assuring that you'll crash in the touchdown zone, that is? LOL!
Seriously, it may smack the runway a good one, but you'll be in the TD zone.
 
We use idle reverse as a minimum, unless there is a definite reason not to open the reversers -- it's SOP. Obviously, we have the authority to use full reverse as judgement deems necessary.

A landing where full reverse is used is considered another cycle on the engine - which leads to shorter life (the engines have a life cycle limit). Hence, we try to not use full reverse, unless necessary.
 
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Aircraft are certified to stop without reverse thrust. They can be dispatched without thrust reversers operative through the MEL. Brakes are more important. :)
 
miles otoole said:
Use of TRs has a negligible effect on engine wear and tear. Not sure where you learned this.

Actually, anything above min thrust reverse does have a significant effect on engine life. Just had recurrent where a Pratt & Whitney (english for IAE) rep said that as a result of using min thrust reverse, we save the company hundreds of thousands of dollars in early overhual costs. Brakes are relatively cheap compared to engine costs.
 
miles otoole said:
Use of TRs has a negligible effect on engine wear and tear. Not sure where you learned this.


Miles, Miles, Miles....COME ON now...know your AUDIENCE before making statements like that...unless you were joking of course!
 
miles otoole said:
Use of TRs has a negligible effect on engine wear and tear. Not sure where you learned this.
This is correct. In terms of cycles, times on the engine, etc, the use of the T/Rs do not impact engine MX, directly.

Indirectly, sucking up FOD can come into play. There are some older engines that o take into account T/Rs use when it comes to overhauls, etc, but for the most part, anything younger than 20-25 years old, this does not apply.

With that in mind, the T/Rs themself are use limited. Hydraulically actuated equipment is going to need MX. T/Rs have to be overhauled at certain intervals, so that is why their use is probably discourage. It's much easier and quicker to slap a new set of brakes on instead of taking a engine's T/Rs off for an overhaul.

As it's been said, Carbon Fiber are much more expensive than traditional brakes, but they last a long time and are not subject to the same limitations when hot.
 
Ahhhh the thrust reverse argument. Hmm. Well, our company doesn't want us using TR in the 1900 if we don't have to. No big deal, because in a 1900 beta works JUUUSTTT fine for deceleration. However, in the Citation I once flew we almost always used TR. In my opinion, use every resource available to you, especially for slowing down. Also, make it comfortable for the pax. You can still use TR and make it comfortable. It doesn't scare them, they know what it is, and hell, they think the engine actually backs up. Also, I can never figure out why some companies policies on short runways are full reverse and brakes, but for long runways, no reverse and just brakes. Isn't the whole argument that TR is not effective and brakes are the only thing that will stop you. If it's a long runway, use med TR and no brakes but if it's a short runway use maximum braking in my opinion. Popular to contrary belief, TRs do not decrease engine life. The engine was designed to handle and excercise TR. Its like saying, don't use your electric car windows because the motor will burn up. Sure you may not have to replace the motor for a long time but you'll make up for the cost of replacing the motor in gas purchases because you'll always have the AC running. Everything goes hand in hand.
 
Welp, some of us still fly large (read heavy) a/c that have steel brakes and not those fancy carbon fiber things. So using the buckets is highly reccommend is you dont want high brake temps and you want to depart in the next 2-3 hrs.
So far every jet a/c I have flown the T/Rs work really well...not quite sure where the statement of they dont do much came from unless its more barbie jet driver stuff.
 
oldxfr8dot,

I know you were joking but I was referring to the wx conditions the origional poster was referring to. I've never seen 40 mph gusts when the wx was 600-600-600. I've seen guys try to autoland for currency reasons in gusty conditions where I thought we should have just saved the autoland for another airport.
 
miles otoole said:
Use of TRs has a negligible effect on engine wear and tear. Not sure where you learned this.



It may be true for some aircraft and I also didn't believe it was a maintenance concern...

But according to our director of maintenance when I asked him this very question.... It does save significant maintenance costs to minimize the amount of reverse thrust.

And IDLE reverse is used for every jetBlue landing.
 
Make some noise!

Boy all you guys miss out on a lot of fun with these no reverse / idle reverse landings.
I spend 5 months out of the year flying into short, dark, slick runways and I use a dump truck load of reverse on almost every landing.
JT8D-17A's have good old buckets that work very well at about 1.4 to 1.6 epr. An old Arctic Eagle Captain told me years ago as we are skiddin and bumpin down the runway in OME, brakes modulating and nose swinging left and right, "Make some noise, let'em know you are in town!"
Seriously, my company has had many saves over the years from T/R's.
 
AK737FO said:
Boy all you guys miss out on a lot of fun with these no reverse / idle reverse landings.
I spend 5 months out of the year flying into short, dark, slick runways and I use a dump truck load of reverse on almost every landing.
JT8D-17A's have good old buckets that work very well at about 1.4 to 1.6 epr. An old Arctic Eagle Captain told me years ago as we are skiddin and bumpin down the runway in OME, brakes modulating and nose swinging left and right, "Make some noise, let'em know you are in town!"
Seriously, my company has had many saves over the years from T/R's.

Right on!
 

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