jaa frozen atpl

[airgator]

How would I go about obtaining a frozen JAA ATPL? Do I have to go to the UK or is there a way to do it here in the states?

 

[Kenny]

It all depends really, on how much cash you can get your hands on and how much time you can give to the ground school.

The quickest and by far the most expensive is to take the time off and do a dedicated JAA ground school. It'll take about 8 months and probably cost around $8000. A cheaper but somewhat harder way is to do the ground school via distance learning. By far the best notes and course out there is Oxford Air Training in the UK. You are going to pay a premium for the Oxford name but the notes are excellent and every one of my mates that has gone OAT has said their JAA exams were almost exactly the same as the samples they were given to practice on before hand. Even the ones that started doing the course somewhere else, ended up at OAT.

The theory is by far the most intensive part. The flight training for the CPL and the skills test can be done in the US. If you already have a US ATP then it's only the training required to get up to standard. The Multi/IR training can be done in the US but the skills test has to be done in JAA Airspace.

If you don't have 500 hours on a Multi-Crew AC, you'll also need to do an MCC course, that'll set you back about another $4000 before you'll be issued with a license.

I'd suggest before you attempt any of this, that at the very least you get a JAA Class 1 medical, so that you know you can pass it. It's not like the "tap on the knee" and "are you feeling alright" FAA medical.

If you need any more info PM me. I'd started the theory and then had to put it on the back burner because of work. I'll be starting it again in the New Year.

 

[Jennyjenjen]

I'm a flight instructor for Oxford Airline Training in Phoenix, AZ, and I am quite impressed with the program that Oxford offeres. You would have to go to the UK for 6 months of ground school, and then you would come to Phoenix for your flying and CPL checkride. All of the students seem to get airline jobs when they got back to the UK! I hear the cost of the course is pretty much the same as other courses offered in the UK too, but OAT holds a strong name in the industry. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

 

[Alltheway]

but even with a Frozen ATPL, you would still need a mcc course and a Passport/visa? From what I understand, you cannot get a visa with out the job first and employers wount look at you because you dont have a passport/visa. That has been my road block so far.

 

[Kenny]

but even with a Frozen ATPL, you would still need a mcc course.

Not necesarily, there is the posibility you have 500 hours in a multi-crew aircraft but don't satisfy all the requirements for the issuance of the ATP.

 

[Metro752]

Here is a question, what benefits are there for a guy from the U.S. who wants to fly for a US company, receive if he were to obtain a Frozen ATPL.

What exactly does Frozen mean?

Edit: Nevermind I googled.

According to what I googled, and off the record.........

The "frozen ATPL" is a phrase used, informally, in JAR states (and especially the UK) to mean a Commercial pilot with intsrument rating
that has the ATPL exams passed but does not yet qualify for the ATPL
due to lack of flight time.

Commonly first officers flying under JAA regulations have what is
known as a “frozen ATPL”. Once their flight time is then built up with
an airline, they take an ATPL skills check to be issued with the full
ATPL.

The hours required for a full JAA ATPL are:
Total Time 1500 hrs, to include:
500hrs pilot in a Multi-crew aircraft
250 Hrs P1 (or 100 P1C and 150 P1u/s)
200 Hrs cross country
75 hrs Instrument flight
100 hrs Night

To upgrade an ICAO CPL to a JAA CPL:
(This assumes you have gained a CPL/IR outside of the JAA - ie USA).

The JAA ATPL hours required are:
100 hrs P1
20 hrs cross-country – to include a route of at least 300 nm with two
full stop landings at aerodromes other than that of departure.
10 hrs instrument training – 5 hrs may be on ground
5 hours at night comprising at least 3 hours of dual instruction,
including at least 1 hour of cross-country navigation, and 5 solo
take-offs and 5 full-stop landings.
Total hrs required for issue of license = 200

You must have achieved the required 200 hours flight time for the
issue of a JAA CPL. You will get about 10 to 20 hrs doing the upgrade,
so need to start with about 180 minimum.

You will then need to study for and pass all the ground exams, by
following an approved JAA course – probably a standard 650 hours
course. This can be done by distance learning or full time.

Next is a CPL skills check. It is not a formal course, just sufficient
training to enable you to pass the JAA CPL skills test. This may be
2/3 hours or "if you can't fly" a lot longer.

Next will be a twin type rating - again it may be a quick check if you
gained one previously, or a 6 hour course if starting from scratch.
If you are not a UK citizen you have to prove you can speak English!
This is done by taking the FRTOL (RT licence).

Next you will need a minimum 15 hour IR upgrade course, again this may
be longer if your IR skills are not up to scratch.
Finally you round it all off with the Multi-Crew Course.

This thread more accurately explains the processes one must take to
convert their FAA ATP to a JAA one based on flight experience:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/printthread.php?t=46227

You can also refer to Sections A7 and G1.5 from this document:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS2005.PDF

 

[Kenny]

Close...........There isn't an ATP check ride/skills test in the EU. Their CPL check ride is to ATP standards, which means once they get the flight time required for an ATPL, their frozen ATPL becomes "unfrozen"

The CPL and ATPL flight tests are exactly the same check ride, the only difference between having a CPL and a frozen ATPL is you've done all 14 exams as opposed to about 8, I think for the CPL.

 

[Metro752]

Close...........There isn't an ATP check ride/skills test in the EU. Their CPL check ride is to ATP standards, which means once they get the flight time required for an ATPL, their frozen ATPL becomes "unfrozen"

The CPL and ATPL flight tests are exactly the same check ride, the only difference between having a CPL and a frozen ATPL is you've done all 14 exams as opposed to about 8, I think for the CPL.

Thanks Kenny!

 

[Stby One]

Close...........There isn't an ATP check ride/skills test in the EU. Their CPL check ride is to ATP standards, which means once they get the flight time required for an ATPL, their frozen ATPL becomes "unfrozen"

The CPL and ATPL flight tests are exactly the same check ride, the only difference between having a CPL and a frozen ATPL is you've done all 14 exams as opposed to about 8, I think for the CPL.

That's not quite true. I did my JAA ATPL skill test (checkride) just 10 months ago. You normally need a skill test according to JAA. You can take the skill test during an OPC, the only addition to the PC is a raw data approach.

Now there are however some national authorities within the JAA that don't require a skill test, Germany for example. There you automatically get an "unfrozen" ATPL when you fulfill the time requirement. But the license will say "ATPL co-pilot only" (which in reality still means frozen).

The JAA is a big mess, each national authority interprets the JAR's, joint aviation REQUIREMENTS (not regulation), differently. Espcially when it comes to licensing.

The cost of a license vary by over 500% between states. The nastiest authority when it comes to cost of a license is probably Sweden, where you pay about $450/year for an ATPL. In Ireland however the same license will cost you around $75/year.

Now the authority of the JAA is slowly being shifted over to EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency), which just recently were accused of being an "accident to happen" by the UK government. The UK will not let any of the rulemaking be done by EASA until they resolve certain safety issues, like understaffing etc.

The JAA has done some good though, with your JAA license you can fly an aircraft registered in any JAA state.

 

[Kenny]

Stby one,

Didn't know that some states actually have am ATPL skills test. Just shows what a mess it is. We're talking about a group of countries that have at various times been at war over the last few hundred years and they're supposed to agree on pilot licensing??!! It's a miracle if they agree on anything, together at all.

 

[Stby One]

Stby one,

Didn't know that some states actually have am ATPL skills test. Just shows what a mess it is. We're talking about a group of countries that have at various times been at war over the last few hundred years and they're supposed to agree on pilot licensing??!! It's a miracle if they agree on anything, together at all.

That's exactly it. Just some examples of the crazyness going on:

In france they translate the written exams into french, why when the aviation language is english? I would have been happy to speak french if that was the agreed language, but it's not. (BTW english is not my first language, neither is french so I DO have the right to complain )

French airlines, including Air France, speak french with ATC in france. A few years ago people where killed in a crash between a french and a UK airline at one of the Paris airports due to runway incursion. It would have been avoided had the french spoken english. Did they learn from this accident? NO they still speak french.

EASA only recruits people that speak a minimum of two languages, again why? This effectively means that many senior aviation specialists from the UK and Ireland can't be recruited. Who comes up with this crap?

I recently transferred my licenses over to Ireland (you can change state luckily), after being fed up with my old authority. I (and many others) thought they where overcharging for their services. The reason for overcharging? They were following the JAR's more than other states.

How can different states follow and interpret rules differently? I guess the answer to that is found in your post Kenny.

It's OK to be a proud little country in Europe, but pride should not come in the way of safety.