I've met the enemy,

[FlyComAirJets]

High Noon

CSmith

For now, I'll let others refute your ridiculous assertions.

The glaring mistake that you and others of your ilk make over and over again is really quite simple: by consistently ignoring and underestimating the integrity, intelligence, and resolve of regional pilots in general and ASA/Comair pilots in particular, you are setting up for a showdown at ALPA HQ and/or a federal court close to you.

Lame attempts at exclusionary arguments don't work. Most regional pilots would put up their experience and qualifications against yours any day of the week.

What's next? Intimidation and bullying tactics, I'll bet. That will not work either.

Yeah, this is going to run its course. You cannot escape it. Y'all take care, now.

 

[1900laker]

After many months of observing/participating in the RJ vs mainline issue. It has finally sunk in, the RJ crews are making over two times the amount of pay per seat that I make.

Wow, using that measure, I never realized how good I had it working at Great Lakes. I had a ratio of 1.47 dollars/seat/hour. That has got to be one of the highest in the industry. Sure didn't seem like $28/hour was all that much though. Went to my new job only making .18 dollars/seat/hour, but somehow worked out to roughly the same pay. Point is this measure only works some of the time.

 

[csmith]

Re: High Noon

From FCJ:


"CSmith

For now, I'll let others refute your ridiculous assertions."


Why, don't you have anything to say about my rediculous assertions?



"The glaring mistake that you and others of your ilk make over and over again is really quite simple: by consistently ignoring and underestimating the integrity, intelligence, and resolve of regional pilots in general and ASA/Comair pilots in particular, you are setting up for a showdown at ALPA HQ and/or a federal court close to you."


You're wrong here. What YOU fail to realize is that some of us mainliners ARE former regional and have those same survival, integrity, intelligence, and resolve qualities. Just because you are regional does not mean you have a monopoly on them as Delta pilots do not have the monopoly on arrogance. Why don't you stick to the discussion at hand and we'll save the flaming for another thread.



"Lame attempts at exclusionary arguments don't work. Most regional pilots would put up their experience and qualifications against yours any day of the week."


It's not the qualifications nor the experience which I have heartache with. You need to go back and reread my postings. I would venture a guess that any one of your Brasilia or ATR drivers could outfly me on an ILS--as could I in my prop days. If compensation were based on raw flying skills and experience, prop drivers would be the ones making 300K. Does that make you feel better now? Can we get past the ego here and stick to the issues?



"What's next? Intimidation and bullying tactics, I'll bet. That will not work either.

Yeah, this is going to run its course. You cannot escape it. Y'all take care, now."


Tell you what, I'll refer back to your first sentence. You really don't seem to have anything of substance to say.

C

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Guess the point of my posting sailed completely over your head, so let's try it a bit simpler so that you might understand.

My point, and the theme of this thread, is that the biggest opposition in these matters is ourselves. Pilot vs. pilot. Management is laughing their collective backsides off as the bickering drags on ad infinitum.

As long as regional pilots are consistently treated as an inferior subgroup of our own union of which we are dues payers in good standing, then you are going to have dissent.

No, you don't have a monopoly on arrogance, but you sure have it cornered! Take care.

 

[surplus1]

Diatribe to CSmith - Part 1

From Surplus1:
After watching for some time here on this board, I think you have finally come up with a winner. This is absolutely true. Allow me to explain a bit further.

Thank you. I of course would argue that this "winner" is but one of many. It's all a matter of prespective isn't it?

I've watched you posts and how this board seems to be very biased toward the regional types--or types formerly known as regionals. How could it not be, with an obviously biased moderator and 4 or 5 people who work for Comair and ASA who are allowed to take their shots at mainline guys. When these same mainline guys shoot back, however, they get chastised, posts removed, and even banished from the boards. I have seen many regional folk on here post, yes Surplus including you, completely non-accurate information.

Interesting, but I fear more inaccurate than you accuse me of being. I've seen some heated exchanges and participated in many but I know of only one mainline pilot having a post removed (Clownpilot) and I don't know of anyone being banned.

If you find and inaccuracy in one of my posts, please point it out. However, do not confuse differences of opinion with inaccuracy. I am not inaccurate because I see things differently than you do.

Your quoted paragraph above sums up the industry nicely. It also disproves the notion of your laswuit. The scope at Delta restricts none of these things. I'll say that again: SCOPE AT DELTA RESTRICTS NONE OF THESE THINGS.

Here we have an example of what you earlier called and inaccuracy. In my opinion your idea that Scope at Delta restricts none of these things could not be more erroneous. I'm sure you would call that statement accurate, I would not. The portion of your Scope that is in dispute does attempt to restrict market forces. It artificially limits one aircraft type, severely restricts the utilization of other types and attempts to force the Company to operated types that you prefer to fly. If those things are not all market restrictions, pray tell what is? Fortunately for the Company your Scope is currently disabled or the Company would not be able to address its current needs.

My so-called omnipotent rants are no more than responses to your peers inflated egos. Review the posts again and you will see that Mr. DiMora initiated the "been there done that", not I. I can't help the fact that I've been there too and done more. Sorry that you're chagrined by that, but it happens to be true. I don't tout where I've been or what I've done, but you folks have a propensity when unable to debate, to challenge the background of your opponent. Your peer did so twice, before I responded. As it turned out, his assumptions were inaccurate and his own background comparatively deficient. That's not my fault. If you don't want answers don't ask the question.

I don't think my comment in this thread shoots any holes in the RJDC case and your comments most certainly do not. I understand the merger provisions of your PWA and find them to be intentionally discriminatory and based only on aircraft seating. That doesn't hurt the RJDC case, it helps it.

Who's flying you say you're not restricting depends on agreement with your concept of ownership of all the flying. That concept is flawed from the get go. You own nothing. The flying belongs to Delta, Inc. Some of it is allocated to Delta Air Lines (where you work). The rest is allocated elsewhere, including where I work and has been for extended periods. The fact that you want to change that because you now want it all, doesn't make it so. You just think it does.

Your statement that Delta can put RJs of any size into Delta Air Lines, thereby giving you control of all the flying, is technically accurate but otherwise ludicrous. Delta can do that. However, Delta, Inc. never has done that. Each time you negotiate, the portion that Delta, Inc. chooses to allocate to you can change. So can the portion allocated to us. Your efforts to gain total control of everything, at our expense, is the crux of the dispute. You not only want what you have, you also want what we have and actually have convinced yourself that is your sacred right. Yes, you can have whatever you negotiate, but the fact is you don't negotiate anything. The Air Line Pilots Association does the negotiating and is responsible for its actions. When the negotiations are conducted in violation of the ALPA constitution and further, in violation of ALPA's Duty of Fair Representation, the product of those illegal negotiations is rendered void.

Further, the placement of the RJs and the mainline is essentially precluded by the content of your PWA that would render them unprofitable. Neither you or ALPA are unaware of this. The conditions you seek to impose on the airline through your PWA would make the RJ product unmarketable. Not only have you effectively priced yourselves out of the RJ market, you may well have done the same with the other aircraft assigned to you. The more that you do this, the less chance there is that Delta, Inc. will agree to give you the RJ flying. You know that, so don't pretend otherwise.

Since the union knows full well that it has priced you out of the market for RJs, why then does the union object to our flying them and attempt to take them away? Easy, it doesn't want them to operate anywhere because they might "lower your average wage base". So it attempts to impose agreements that will control or limit them, for the sole purpose of furthering your interests at our expense. Further, it attempts to dictate to the Company, how many may be operated, where they may fly, and who will fly them, forgetting in the process that we already fly them and we, like you, are also represented by that very same union.

The union has acted arbitrarily and bargained in bad faith to damage us and favor you. That happens to be against the law. It is precisely what the Duty of Fair Representation prohibits.

First of all "you" are not only not the "sole bargaining group at Delta", you are not the bargaining agent at all. Your MEC is not a legal entity, it is but a tool of the agent. So is mine. ALPA is the exclusive bargaining agent. Your company, Delta Air Lines, Inc., is owned by the same corporation that owns my company and ASA. Delta, Inc. is the controlling corporation, not Delta Air Lines, Inc.. You are as much a subsidiary as are we. Granted you are the biggest one, but you are still a subsidiary. When ALPA bargains for you, Delta, Inc. makes the final decisions. When ALPA bargains for me, Delta, Inc. also makes the final decisions. We are indeed "affiliates" of Delta, Inc., so are you, whether you like it or not. Delta Air Lines is equally "set up on paper" for ALPA to bargain with as are Comair and ASA. As subsidiaries of Delta, Inc. none of what any of the three of us do for Delta, Inc. is "outsourcing". It is all owned and operated by Delta, Inc.

We do not interfere when ALPA negotiates your pay rates or your retirement, etc., because those items are exclusively with the subsidiary of Delta Air Lines. Likewise, you do not interfere when ALPA negotiates our pay rates or retirement, etc. However, when it comes to who will do what portion of Delta, Inc.'s flying, you believe that you are the exclusive arbiters of that and you use your financial clout within ALPA to cause its decisions to favor your ideas at our expense. ALPA has a legal responsibility to represent our interests, just as it has a responsibility to represent your interests. When those interests are in conflict, the only way that the ALPA may represent either one of us fairly, is to first achieve mutual agreement between us on the conflicting interests. That is what you don't seem to comprehend or, if you do, will not acknowledge.

You cannot use ALPA, which is also our agent, to negotiate away our livelihood without our consent. ALPA did not seek that consent and does not have it. I'm not a lawyer, but it does not take rocket science to know that an illegally negotiated component of a contract is rendered void. Whether you take money, jobs, flying or all of the above from another illegally, you will ultimately by forced by the courts to return what you took. It is ill-gotten spoils and you aren't entitled to keep it.

What you call the "little pond" that we have on this board is far more diverse than the big pond you have on the ALPA boards, where you outnumber us more than 10 to 1. Is it any wonder that you prefer to discuss the issues in an environment that you dominate? I think not. That's exactly how you do everything else. You dominate the union with your money and force it to do what YOU want, regardless of how adversely it may affect other members. You evidently believe that you are "more equal", by virtue of your size and wealth than the rest of us. That may be so, but it does not excuse the union from compliance with the law.

I'm pleased to see you acknowledge that ALPA does not represent us equally. Please note that we have not asked for "equal" representation. We are demanding fair representation You express doubt as to the union's ability to provide fair representation. That is noteworthy. While you're at it, take note of the fact that providing FAIR representation is not optional on the part of the union, it is required by law. We are not asking for it, it is our legal right and we demand it. The union may either comply with the law of pay the consequences of failing to do so. That has nothing to do with what I like or what you prefer. That's the way it is.

Continue to Part 2

 

[surplus1]

Diatribe to CSmith Part 2 of 2

I have no knowledge of Comair pilots claiming that Delta pilots "owe us" anything. Neither have Comair pilots asked Delta pilots to give us anything. ALPA owes us both fair representation and must provide it. That is all that we are demanding. We are not demanding anything of the "Delta pilots" nor do we intend to. Our legal dispute is with the ALPA. The Delta pilots are not defendants in the litigation.

As for your reference to the alleged Delta MEC "proffer" of a flow-through, I won't argue that here for it is not relevant. However, I will say this much. The Delta MEC cannot "proffer" anything that it does not have the sole power to grant. The Delta MEC has no power to "grant a flow-through", did not in the past and does not now. Additionally, your statement is misinformed, but that's for another time.

The idea that I offered in another thread is not a "miracle idea" by any means. It was no more than one suggestion for a more palatable and honest solution to the dilemma at US Air Group, made in answer to a specific question. None of your group has chosen to find fault with any component of the idea and none of you has offered any alternative. You simple object to that that something was suggested. How shallow can you people be? It is most definitely not a "flow-through" but if it has any merit, I do not care whether you call it a flow through or something else. My interest is in the achievement of equity, not preferred names and spin. Call it anything that pleases you. Do it and it could change things for the better.

Just remember folks, some people may WRITE well, but that doesn't mean they are RIGHT.

I like that. I notice also that you are among those that write well and I hope you'll accept that the axiom applies equally to you.

The Scope policies that the ALPA chooses to pursue do indeed attempt to flaunt market forces not only at Delta, but at every major airline in the industry that ALPA represents. That is precisely why they have to date been a dismal failure. There intended purpose of "stopping proliferation of the RJ" or of "transferring the RJs to the mainline", have failed miserably and most assuredly because the market forces dictate otherwise. This flawed protocol has served no purpose other that division within our union and has accomplished nothing for mainline pilots who appear married to the idea.

Legitimate Scope that protects the flying of Delta pilots in Delta Air Lines, is not only appropriate but essential. Predatory Scope that attempts to usurp the work of others and transfer it to your control has been illegally negotiated and needs to be thrown out.

Delta Air Lines does not own and does not operate any regional jets. Delta pilots have never flown any regional jets or any other "regional" aircraft currently in service. You have never done the flying that we do, you do not own it, you have never owned it and you have no rights to it. Please don't bother to tell me that you once flew crop dusters in Monroe or DC9's with 65 seats 30 years ago. I really don't care. Comair was the first airline to buy and operate "regional jets" in this country and has been operating them ever since. We bought them with our money, not yours. The fact that Delta, Inc. acquired Comair does not give Delta pilots the right to transfer our traditional flying to Delta pilots or to otherwise restrict it. We have taken nothing from you and have not sought to do so. We will not give you what is ours, simply because you want it. Try a different strategy for the course you have coerced our union into following is doomed to failure.

If you wish to work with us, we'll be happy to do that. The terms will be those to which we mutually agree, not the one's that you choose to unilaterally dictate. As soon as you understand that, we can move forward to a solution that benefits all of us.

Regards,
Surplus1

End of Diatribe.

 

[csmith]

Guess the point of my posting sailed completely over your head, so let's try it a bit simpler so that you might understand.

My point, and the theme of this thread, is that the biggest opposition in these matters is ourselves. Pilot vs. pilot. Management is laughing their collective backsides off as the bickering drags on ad infinitum.

As long as regional pilots are consistently treated as an inferior subgroup of our own union of which we are dues payers in good standing, then you are going to have dissent.

No, you don't have a monopoly on arrogance, but you sure have it cornered! Take care.

I guess that is about enough of the discussion with you. I would like to say, AGAIN, that I don't feel any of you are inferior. You seem to draw that out of every post that doesn't go your way. I think I went way out of my way to explain it. It's nothing about arrogance or inferiority.

As for management, I think they have much more important things to think about than infighting among their various subsidiaries and affiliates.

C

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

Surplus1,

Keep up the good work. Excellent and thoughtful post as usual. This one really shines.

KlingonLRDRVR

 

[FlyComAirJets]

CSmith wrote, "I would like to say, AGAIN, that I don't feel any of you are inferior. You seem to draw that out of every post that doesn't go your way. I think I went way out of my way to explain it. It's nothing about arrogance or inferiority."

The point that continues to elude you is that there is a caste structure within our union. Arbitrary qualifications were the last exclusionary argument that could be drawn up. When I say that we are viewed as inferior, I don't mean it is because we have less qualifications (in many cases, we do not) but that being a regional pilot entales one to different and second-rate representation. A permenant underclass, if you will. And that does continue to show up in your postings.

And CSmith further states, "As for management, I think they have much more important things to think about than infighting among their various subsidiaries and affiliates."

Wow, you missed that one too. Management is well aware of this situation. How else could they continue whipsawing carriers against one another, create alter ego airlines, and resurrect the dreaded b-scale? Read Hard Landing and you'll see why management goes after labor, it is the biggest controllable expense that airlines have as they compete against one another.
Keeping unions off property or off balance or at each others' throats is PRECISELY what they have in mind. Look how much USAirways' management reorganization efforts are directed at the various labor groups on the property. Jets4Jobs anyone?

That was Enigma's original point, I believe. We are our own worst enemy. Let's get over this silly-a$$ed schoolyard name calling and employ the awesome union process that ALPA could exert. Now that is what I'd call a union.

 

[AAflyer]

FlyComairJets,

Very intresting, you cut down CSmith in every paragraph of your last post, then say let's stop the childish name calling.

The one thing I have noticed like CSmith has mentioned is how many regional pilots cut down major pilots when they express their OPINION. I have seen it one both sides but it does seem to be coming more from the other camp. The name calling has gotten rather silly. As for understanding contracts, I .have seen well written posts on both sides of the fence, but in all reality it takes a lawyer to figure some of this stuff out, why do you think there are so many grievances at different companies (lot's of gray area).

Like CSmith mentioned, many of us have crossed over, and only a small percentage of mainline pilots have that " I am God" because I fly for a major attitude.

If so many pilots see that we are our own worst enemy when will we sieze the day and change course?

AAflyer