I've had enough....This Nov 07th. Vote Pro Pilot

[Donald]

Rez, Is your situation that desperate? If so, maybe the blame lies elsewhere. I admit I only have two and a half years in the airline industry, but I'm still enjoying how much of an improvement it is over active duty military. You are starting to sound like the type of person that will never be happy regardless of what changes take place. No matter who wins this next election, I doubt it will have much influence on my ability to provide for my family. Can you give a few examples of what changes you would like to see.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

IThe point? Corp America and managment simply view WalMart workers and pilots as commodities; cost to be controlled. Ex; my healthcare is not just a cost but a requirement to my longevity.

There are agenda's to create anyone who directs another employee to labeled as a supervisor and thus ineligbile for union membership. Not sure how this applies to the RLA, but I don't want Corp America to think they can classify Air Line Captains as supervisors an ineligible for union membership. This will be determined on CapHill.

Where did you read this about Captains?? Seems like a red herring meant to make us feel like what we have now is better than the alternative. Diabolical to say the least.

Yes, the American anti-union mentality is out of control. Healthcare will get more expensive until a valid threat to nationalize it comes. The only reason it won't get nationalized will be because healthcare workers wages will be cut to keep it "cost effective". Everyone is having their wages cut. The globalization thing you hear about is real and the Upper class want most Americans to be a well educated and cheap labor pool to staff their corporations.

That is why immigrants have been a controversy. Cheap labor for the jobs you don't want to do so you can make more at an "educated" job. But now these educated jobs are getting raped too.

We are a commodity. More precisely, a resource. Too bad the Democratic party is to stupid to get going on real issues important to economic groups instead of ethnic and special groups. They alienate us because they figure we are too stupid to go Democratic because so many of us are brainwashed to vote Republican.

Airline management is doing exactly what they learned in business school. Managing the resources to provide the company a profit. It used to be the American way to let old companies die when their workers got too comfortable and asked too much and herald the arrival of fresh "new" companies that provided vibrant growth and job creation. Somehow we transitioned into an era of companies going bankrupt and reemerging as a new company sporting new company wages (Don't mention the workers are the same and the management is the same at the same old management wages).

This Country is being run just like the elites want it to be run. All the speeches about worry and outrage over different issues is just to get attention and keep us confused. America is on track to continue growth on our backs and their is no incentive for them to change it. They like it this way.

Good luck in your quest Rez.

 

[Moonshiner]

One party will keep your net pay down by keeping your gross pay down. The other party will keep your net pay down by increasing taxes on whatever raise you may get in gross pay. Either way we are left in the middle to suck on it. They're all full of sh!t.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

That's the problem. The job doesn't get done in many cases. Economic policy is an excellent example. The two parties have radically different ideas about what tax policy is best for the economy. Both can't be right, because they are mutually exclusive. You have to decide which one will work. Is the economy important to your family? If so, then you need to decide which candidates can best handle the economy. Just voting based on which candidate claims to be "pro-pilot" is too simplistic, and you are doing yourself, your family, and your country a disservice by voting based on such a simplistic basis.


Interesting, seeing as how the congress in the late 90s was virtually the same as the congress we have right now. Remember, the Rs gained control of both houses in '94. The massive hiring and pattern bargaining that we enjoyed in the 99'-01' timeframe took place while we had a wide Republican majority in both houses of Congress

You must be young becuase you think there is only "One" correct tax policy. How about a decent spending policy instead of mortgaging the future you claim to look out for?

Rez is talking about things like the RLA that is an important tool for airline management to knock down labor. Then, when profit suddenly returns "out of nowhere", there is no mechanism to raise wages again because contracts are good forever. Even while management is making a killing on special stock options and other incentives that keeps their pay above pre- 9/11 levels. THERE IS NO SHARING OF PAIN. Just nasty, greedy managements that Congress and the Prez allow to operate under their protection for votes.

And to correlate the hiring boom at airlines to a Republican held Congress is an incredible "simplification" of the conditions that caused the boom. It was a boom that, coupled with the RLA, resulted in the stinky contract at UAL today. Blame it on who you will, but management knew it would play out like it has. All the managers made out like bandits pre 9/11, right after 9/11, and now are making out post BK. They will make out even better during a merger. All the nastiness of BK was barely a hiccup in their world. Go ask the retirees near Chicago how it went for them when they lost the pension. Another thing the administration thought was cool to let happen. But you are young and way too smart to let that happen to you. Many of those dudes flew for years without the 401K as an option, so don't say they should have done that.

You are right the government does not have to step in and "help" pilots. But they chose to step in and create the RLA and to let managements do their worst. It would be nice if they fixed what that dorked up, then left it alone like you suggest.

You go vote for your tough on terror candidates. We understand everything else, in your mind, will just fall into place if they do their very important job of defending the country (which is important, no sarcasm there). I think the government is capable of doing more than one thing at a time, so I focus on different issues too.

If your pay gets cut 50% to pay for the war with a house, wife and 2 kids we'll see how you feel about it then.

 

[PCL_128]

You must be young becuase you think there is only "One" correct tax policy. How about a decent spending policy instead of mortgaging the future you claim to look out for?

No argument there. Take a look at one of my posts above and you'll see that I also referenced the out-of-control budget and spending on social programs. That is different from tax policy, however. Taxes and spending should be cut. It's not an either/or proposition.

And to correlate the hiring boom at airlines to a Republican held Congress is an incredible "simplification" of the conditions that caused the boom.

I didn't correlate it. Rez wanted to compare the 90s to today, so I did.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Fair enough PCL.

Thanks for the good response.

I normally avoid this politics stuff 'cause I hate it.

 

[atafan]

Just voted!

I hate to say it but I voted out of fear.

Fear of:
"San Fran Nan"
Reed
Al Bore
Mr. Hillary Clinton
Murtha
and let's not forget "Waffle Head" now comic John Kerry.

Straight R's

The Republicans have become so lame but until the Dems kick out the Howard Deans and the other freaks and become more like the party of [SIZE=-1]Zell Miller [/SIZE]I just can't take the chance. The Repubs will probably lose the House but at least I have a clean conscience.

 

[cocknbull]

Stated by REZ

I am not advocating regulation. I am advocating voting for Congressmen on CapHill who favor Air Line Pilots and thier agenda.

I vote for our national leaders based on there ability to defend this country and the constitution. Federal government should do little else but, ensure peoples constitutional rights aren't broken by state law.

Voting as you say in your quote represents the same myopic self serving thinking I have come to expect from Democrats.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

I agree with cocknbull in that we allow ourselves to be too "dependent" upon government for things that government shouldn't get too involved in the first place.

FlyBoeingJets, your comments are pretty good and logical. You should go into management....on second thought your objectivity might not be too welcomed in the ivory tower .

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Stated by REZ

I vote for our national leaders based on there ability to defend this country and the constitution. Federal government should do little else but, ensure peoples constitutional rights aren't broken by state law.

Voting as you say in your quote represents the same myopic self serving thinking I have come to expect from Democrats.

I didn't say anything about DEMS... I said pro pilot....

Defend the country and constitution? What about the CFR? You know all those laws that govern the Airline indursty that congressmen vote on....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, Is your situation that desperate? If so, maybe the blame lies elsewhere. I admit I only have two and a half years in the airline industry, but I'm still enjoying how much of an improvement it is over active duty military. You are starting to sound like the type of person that will never be happy regardless of what changes take place. No matter who wins this next election, I doubt it will have much influence on my ability to provide for my family. Can you give a few examples of what changes you would like to see.

Blame? Not happy?

I am simply pointing out a condition and offer a course of action....

 

[FightingIrish]

I didn't say anything about DEMS... I said pro pilot....

Defend the country and constitution? What about the CFR? You know all those laws that govern the Airline indursty that congressmen vote on....

What do you mean by "pro-pilot"? That is a pretty general statement. Tell me Rez, what is your solution to this problem. Be specific.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What do you mean by "pro-pilot"? That is a pretty general statement. Tell me Rez, what is your solution to this problem. Be specific.

I say pro pilot because that is really the intent... If I say pro labor then it turns off many airline pilots... even though we are politically aligned with labor...

The solution to the problem is....

Politics. Everything that effects Air Line Pilots Careers is detemined on CapHill. The current White House and controlled congress has given us a really hard time the last five years...

From efforts to make a legal strike an act of terrorism and disqualifying event for airline employment to the change of heart by the anti-labor effort on the Hill in the NWA pilots pension efforts once NWA management joined up in the effort...

The solution is for each pilot is to become more politically effective in thier airline career. From voting this Nov. 07 for candidates who support airline pilots to contributing to ALPA-PAC or CAPA-PAC, to becoming activists when a pilots leadership puts a call out to its members to contact elected officials on specific issues...

What if zero pilots where involved politically. The silence would be loud and clear to the politicans... and the message would be " Air Line Pilots Do Not Care, they have given us a blank check"

What if all 75,000+ of us let our views be heard? Action is being taken on a regular basis on CapHill that directly effects our careers, however most pilots are simply not connected and informed...and thus don't know about.

It is really not alot of effort once a pilot is up to speed on the process.

The quagmire: Voting "hobby" issues before career issues.

Many pilots, like my respected pilot friend PCL128, need to vote issues like terrorism, abortion, gun control, of whatever the flavor of the month issue may be above career issues. That is any citizen's right. And it is not the end of the our careers. (even though it really is for many)

Even is PCL 128 votes anti labor this Nov 07, he can still remain engaged by contibuting to the PAC, contacting his elected officials when pilot legislation hits the Hill and staying informed poltiically.

If we are to revamp the RLA, make it easier to strike, etc.. and protect Air Line Pilot careers then we must vote pro pilot. This is the kind of congressman I want on the Hill.

In my opinion, the piloting of these great airplanes is the most responsible, the most skillful occupation mankind has ever engaged in. They are the picked men of the country. It is a profession to which many are called but few are chosen. These men ought to be as free from worry about their economic condition or future as it is humanly or legislatively possible to accomplish. If there is anything we can put into legislation that will keep worry from the airline pilots, it ought to be done.

-Rep. John Martin, CO 1938
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This was in 1938. And we are still trying to get our membership effectiveness up!

 

[Lear70]

Your one size fits all doesn't work. ...you vote what is most important then work the other issues as they come. This is not a "Single issue and all else be danged" methodology. As I said in my last post which you failed to quote is.. you vote your career then work the other issues (phone calls, letters, PACs, activism) as they come along.

Crack smoking again, Rez?

Ummm... HIS "one size fits all"? If I remember correctly, PCL was the one saying that there are MANY issues, and you can't just pick ONE (pilot problems) and direct your entire voting plan on JUST THAT.

THAT would be "one size fits all" for all pilots, right? Don't even bother arguing it, you backed yourself into a corner there, might as well admit it this time.

Wait a second, what am I talking about. I'm having a conversation with Rez, the man with ALL the answers who is NEVER, EVER wrong...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Crack smoking again, Rez?

Ummm... HIS "one size fits all"? If I remember correctly, PCL was the one saying that there are MANY issues, and you can't just pick ONE (pilot problems) and direct your entire voting plan on JUST THAT.

THAT would be "one size fits all" for all pilots, right? Don't even bother arguing it, you backed yourself into a corner there, might as well admit it this time.

Wait a second, what am I talking about. I'm having a conversation with Rez, the man with ALL the answers who is NEVER, EVER wrong...

[inner monolouge]

Must not reply to lear... must not..... fight the urge... debating on FI is like playing in the special olympics... don't hit reply.. fight it...

[end]

Lear....

I guess it depends on ones perspective... Fortunatley for PCL he has been able to accomplish his career goals with little resistance, struggle or hardship. Therefore, he hasn't expereinced it. It is quite common for people who have had tough experiences to become activists, politically. For example, parents who have had children abducted, become involved in legilstion to stop it. Expereince changes behavior and perspective...

However, guys like you and me who have been furloughed and hammered have different expierences and thus different outlooks....

The carrier that PCL works for has a pretty crappy contract, however, they are hiring and upgrading....doing ok for a regional in this environement. Who is to say the his carrier won't get hammered in the next few years... Expereince says it might.. and when it does its better to have pro pilot legislators in place..

The point... being able to pay your house note, food and clothing is everyones number one priority. I am not going to tell you it is yours becuase you will probably find a way to argue that... Nonetheless, in a industry that is heavily connected to CapHill, having politicians aligned with ones number one priority isn't a bad idea....

 

[Lear70]

The point... being able to pay your house note, food and clothing is everyones number one priority. I am not going to tell you it is yours becuase you will probably find a way to argue that...

Absolutely no argument. Feeding and clothing my family (first priority) and myself (2nd priority) are always at the very top. However, given that MOST of us are at least doing THAT much, if not much more, my priorities move on to the next greatest item of importance, RETAINING that minimum quality of life.

Nonetheless, in a industry that is heavily connected to CapHill, having politicians aligned with ones number one priority isn't a bad idea....

And that's where our priorities differ. My number one PERSONAL priority is feeding and clothing my family. My number one POLITICAL priority is safeguarding our borders, from both terrorist attack AND the immigration problem that is ALSO adding to our wage woes.

I can certainly understand that other individual's POLITICAL priorities might be different, but I also can differentiate between a personal priority and the worse evil that has the LONG-TERM threat to our way of life.

Your mileage may vary...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Absolutely no argument. Feeding and clothing my family (first priority) and myself (2nd priority) are always at the very top. However, given that MOST of us are at least doing THAT much, if not much more, my priorities move on to the next greatest item of importance, RETAINING that minimum quality of life.

The next question is.....how... How do you address those prorities and retain that QOL? And is the minimum quality of life satisfactory?

If you are satisfied with the status quo of being an Air Line Pilot and you don't want this career to get better, then put other political issues first.

However, if you think this Air Line Pilot Career can be better; a better RLA or something totally new, a single seniority list, min. pay rates, etc.. what have you, then proritize....

If you want to proritize other issues such as terrorism and borders then don't expect your career to get any better.

There are plenty of people that will address the border and terror issue, however there is only a small group of people, Air Line Pilots specifically, that will address the agenda of airline pilots...

In other words, the only people that care abourt Air Line Pilots are... Air Line Pilots... no one else is going to do squat for us....

And that's where our priorities differ. My number one PERSONAL priority is feeding and clothing my family. My number one POLITICAL priority is safeguarding our borders, from both terrorist attack AND the immigration problem that is ALSO adding to our wage woes.

Your personal priority is determined politically..... In other words, how you feed and cloth your family, under the FARs and RLA, is via politics and legislation...

I can certainly understand that other individual's POLITICAL priorities might be different, but I also can differentiate between a personal priority and the worse evil that has the LONG-TERM threat to our way of life.

Your mileage may vary...

Trying to seperate the two is what many do...............

 

[Spur]

I agree... Lets vote Democrat.

They're for pilots. Pilots like Mohammed Atta....

 

[MalteseX]

I agree... Lets vote Democrat.

They're for pilots. Pilots like Mohammed Atta....

:beer: