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I've had enough....This Nov 07th. Vote Pro Pilot

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Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Posts
13,422
The war on Wages....


Should we be cheering over the fact that the Dow Jones Industrial Average has finally set a new record? No. The Dow is doing well largely because American employers are waging a successful war against wages. Economic growth since early 2000, when the Dow reached its previous peak, hasn’t been exceptional. But after-tax corporate profits have more than doubled, because workers’ productivity is up, but their wages aren’t — and because companies have dealt with rising health insurance premiums by denying insurance to ever more workers.
If you want to see how the war against wages is being fought, and what it’s doing to working Americans and their families, consider the latest news from Wal-Mart.
Wal-Mart already has a well-deserved reputation for paying low wages and offering few benefits to its employees; last year, an internal Wal-Mart memo conceded that 46 percent of its workers’ children were either on Medicaid or lacked health insurance. Nonetheless, the memo expressed concern that wages and benefits were rising, in part “because we pay an associate more in salary and benefits as his or her tenure increases.”
The problem from the company’s point of view, then, is that its workers are too loyal; it wants cheap labor that doesn’t hang around too long, but not enough workers quit before acquiring the right to higher wages and benefits. Among the policy changes the memo suggested to deal with this problem was a shift to hiring more part-time workers, which “will lower Wal-Mart’s health care enrollment.”
And the strategy is being put into effect. “Investment analysts and store managers,” reports The New York Times, “say Wal-Mart executives have told them the company wants to transform its work force to 40 percent part-time from 20 percent.” Another leaked Wal-Mart memo describes a plan to impose wage caps, so that long-term employees won’t get raises. And the company is taking other steps to keep workers from staying too long: in some stores, according to workers, “managers have suddenly barred older employees with back or leg problems from sitting on stools.”
It’s a brutal strategy. Once upon a time a company that treated its workers this badly would have made itself a prime target for union organizers. But Wal-Mart doesn’t have to worry about that, because it knows that these days the people who are supposed to enforce labor laws are on the side of the employers, not the workers.
Since 1935, U.S. workers considering whether to join a union have been protected by the National Labor Relations Act, which bars employers from firing workers for engaging in union activities. For a long time the law was effective: workers were reasonably well protected against employer intimidation, and the union movement flourished.
In the 1970’s, however, employers began a successful campaign to roll back unions. This campaign depended on routine violation of labor law: experts estimate that by 1980 employers were illegally firing at least one out of every 20 workers who voted for a union. But employers rarely faced serious consequences for their lawbreaking, thanks to America’s political shift to the right. And now that the shift to the right has gone even further, political appointees are seeking to remove whatever protection for workers’ rights that the labor relations law still provides.
The Republican majority on the National Labor Relations Board, which is responsible for enforcing the law, has just declared that millions of workers who thought they had the right to join unions don’t. You see, the act grants that right only to workers who aren’t supervisors. And the board, ruling on a case involving nurses, has declared that millions of workers who occasionally give other workers instructions can now be considered supervisors.
As the dissent from the Democrats on the board makes clear, the majority bent over backward, violating the spirit of the law, to reduce workers’ bargaining power.

So what’s keeping paychecks down? Major employers like Wal-Mart have decided that their interests are best served by treating workers as a disposable commodity, paid as little as possible and encouraged to leave after a year or two. And these employers don’t worry that angry workers will respond to their war on wages by forming unions, because they know that government officials, who are supposed to protect workers’ rights, will do everything they can to come down on the side of the wage-cutters.
 
Not sure I agree with that completely. Our work environment is definitely changing but I'm not sure I want Big Brother stepping in. Gov't intervention tends to screw it up and make things worse. If your only option is working at Wal Mart, the burden should be on you to move and seek something better. I know some top execs make way more than they are worth but that should be a decision of the BOD. If it continues to get worse, employee turn over will start costing them more and more. Years ago, I managed a store for a Supermarket chain. We dropped our starting salary and benefit package to save costs. As a result our quality of applicants dropped and our turn over incresed. Bad decision for the company, the cost went out the roof and they never recovered. They are now defunct. Small company compared to Wal Mart but same priciple. Nevertheless, I think Wal Mart will pay some day for their low pay and benefits. I prefer to keep gov't and taxes out of my life as much as possible and let our economy and free market make its own corrections. It doesn't happen fast that way but it does happen.
 
I am not advocating regulation. I am advocating voting for Congressmen on CapHill who favor Air Line Pilots and thier agenda.

The point? Corp America and managment simply view WalMart workers and pilots as commodities; cost to be controlled. Ex; my healthcare is not just a cost but a requirement to my longevity.

There are agenda's to create anyone who directs another employee to labeled as a supervisor and thus ineligbile for union membership. Not sure how this applies to the RLA, but I don't want Corp America to think they can classify Air Line Captains as supervisors an ineligible for union membership. This will be determined on CapHill.

Congressmen who do not favor this are the ones I'd like in control of CapHill. It doesn't matter if they are GOP or DEM.. they just need to be Pro Air Line Pilot.

The question is.... how long are we going to be voting against our paychecks and careers for ideals and values. The number one priority is to put food ont he table, a roof overhead and clothes on the back. I've had enough of my ability to do this regressed.

The reason why profits are so high is becuase productivity is up and wages are way down. This is simply gaming the system at Air Line Pilots and other workers expenses.....

The displacements, furloughes, pay cuts, work rule reductions... I've had enough... I vote Pro Airline Pilot....
 
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I think you will be hard-pressed to find any legislators who are "pro-pilot". In fact, I would wager that the majority who are pro-labor would view the majority of us as above income earners anyway.

The reason for low wages (in parts of) the industry is simply supply and demand. There are a lot of people out there who are willing to accept very low wages and low QOL's in exchange for flying aircraft. As long as that supply exists, I don't expect to see much movement in the wages sector.
 
I think you will be hard-pressed to find any legislators who are "pro-pilot". In fact, I would wager that the majority who are pro-labor would view the majority of us as above income earners anyway.

Oberstar... MN. One of hundreds..... The key is for pilots to vote thier careers and paychecks...

The reason for low wages (in parts of) the industry is simply supply and demand. There are a lot of people out there who are willing to accept very low wages and low QOL's in exchange for flying aircraft. As long as that supply exists, I don't expect to see much movement in the wages sector.

Let's not discuss the anti union movement then... it's all supply and demand...

So what do you suggest.. we just resign ourselves to market forces? Or....???
 
I don't think we have to quit our jobs to even the supply and demand out, but this industry is plagued with wide eyed pilots who's main agenda is to have the title of "Airline Pilot" and wear a uniform, and fly a jet.

Wages will rise, when as a society (pilot's) get up in an interview and laugh all the way out the door when a company quotes the starting wage. But that does not happen. Instead you get, "Yeah sure, no problem, that's fine, great, I will do that, for that amount, that would be great, where did you say I go to get my uniform?"

I love my job, and I am paid what I think is fair to good for what I do, and where I do it. If not, I would move on and find something else to do. It starts at the bottom, wages that is.

I am anti union in it's present third party form. They have an agenda, and it is not ours. There needs to be a union, formed BY PILOTS FOR PILOTS. Regardless of carrier, ONE UNION. And the representation for the union changes often, ie; everyone takes a turn at the table. This way, when a Mesa gets started, pulls their crap, EVERY carrier would shut down. Think how that would work.

But, this union would also have to work FOR THE COMPANY(s) involved. It is not all about "stickin it to the man". A company has to be profitable to be competitive.
Mark
 
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I am advocating voting for Congressmen on CapHill who favor Air Line Pilots and thier agenda.

Sorry, but that's just not how the world works. We have too many other things to think about. The war on terror, out of control gov't spending, entitlement programs that will soon be bankrupt and start draining the general fund, tort reform, abortion, and the list goes on and on. You can't simply vote on a single issue. You have to look at the overall picture and pick the candidate that agrees with your issues and values the most. Pilot issues are important, but they are just one set of issues out of hundreds.
 
Hey PCL with out a way to feed my family I could give a DAMN about other issues. Maslows heirarchy of needs survival being the first
 
Rez, Do you have the names of any other candidates? I will vote for a candidate if he supports my job, but not if thats the only issue we agree on. If I did, I'd be no better than a politician.
 
Rez,
Don't put your ambitions for higher pay in the hands of those who are pushing for a "big" raise in the min wage...your illegal cutting the grass will not work for that.

Even if you make Jetblue 190 FO pay that you all complain about they will
be looking to redistribute your pay to all those poor people voting for them.
 
Hey PCL with out a way to feed my family I could give a dang about other issues. Maslows heirarchy of needs survival being the first

That way of thinking is much too simplistic. The general state of the economy, the state of the nation's budget, tax law, etc... all affect your job and your ability to feed your family in the long run. Voting for someone simply because they claim to be "pro pilot" or "pro labor" is just ridiculous. The issues are just too complex for that style of thinking.
 
Oberstar... MN. One of hundreds..... The key is for pilots to vote thier careers and paychecks...



Let's not discuss the anti union movement then... it's all supply and demand...

So what do you suggest.. we just resign ourselves to market forces? Or....???

What do I suggest? Being proactive. It seems like a lot of pilots spend countless hours telling each other how much they think they are worth, but do very little to actually achieve a goal of being compensated as such. I'm not slamming any particular pilot group with that statement, I'm just pointing out a simple fact.

In other words, you're worth only as much as you can successfully negotiate for.
 
.... The war on terror.....


Anyone who uses that phrase in conversation should add both terms to the list of things that they know very little about.
 
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I don't think we have to quit our jobs to even the supply and demand out, but this industry is plagued with wide eyed pilots who's main agenda is to have the title of "Airline Pilot" and wear a uniform, and fly a jet.

Why blame a guy for wanting to be an Air Line Pilot. are we supposed to wait around till the new hire pay is is agreeable? And agreeable to whom? You?

Wages will rise, when as a society (pilot's) get up in an interview and laugh all the way out the door when a company quotes the starting wage. But that does not happen. Instead you get, "Yeah sure, no problem, that's fine, great, I will do that, for that amount, that would be great, where did you say I go to get my uniform?"

Did youo get up and laugh out the door? Besides, we cannot expect individuals to fall on thier swords...

I love my job, and I am paid what I think is fair to good for what I do, and where I do it. If not, I would move on and find something else to do. It starts at the bottom, wages that is.

Would you like to make more?

I am anti union in it's present third party form. They have an agenda, and it is not ours. There needs to be a union, formed BY PILOTS FOR PILOTS. Regardless of carrier, ONE UNION. And the representation for the union changes often, ie; everyone takes a turn at the table. This way, when a Mesa gets started, pulls their crap, EVERY carrier would shut down. Think how that would work.

Your problem ins with the CFR.. not unions themsleves.. Don't hate the player..hate the game...

But, this union would also have to work FOR THE COMPANY(s) involved. It is not all about "stickin it to the man". A company has to be profitable to be competitive.
Mark

Work for the company? Huh?

No it is not about sticking it to the man.. it is about not sticking to the pilots. Something SWA understands....
 
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Sorry, but that's just not how the world works. We have too many other things to think about. The war on terror, out of control gov't spending, entitlement programs that will soon be bankrupt and start draining the general fund, tort reform, abortion, and the list goes on and on. You can't simply vote on a single issue. You have to look at the overall picture and pick the candidate that agrees with your issues and values the most. Pilot issues are important, but they are just one set of issues out of hundreds.

Agreed but youu can't fight any of those issues if you don't have a house, food, and clothes. Your number one job is to take care of you. No one else will.. Unless you are a flaming liberal then you can live in Brad Pitts guest house and play Nanny to the Cambodian boy....

So, vote your career. Vote for the politician that that will support your paycheck...

Then when war on terror issues come to CapHill you can fight that battle.
Abortion? Why put energy and effort into abortion when there is no legislation on the horizon? Fight that legialtion when it comes to the Hill. Also, give to the Abortion PAC. Give to the tort reform PAC. Give to the anti terror PAC. Support your personal issues ala cart...

You can't solve all problems with one vote for one politician. If you want to tackle multiple issues then you have to engage with votes, letters, PAC money, phone calls, etc.. but you can't do any of that if the bank is trying to get your house...
 
What do I suggest? Being proactive. It seems like a lot of pilots spend countless hours telling each other how much they think they are worth, but do very little to actually achieve a goal of being compensated as such. I'm not slamming any particular pilot group with that statement, I'm just pointing out a simple fact.

In other words, you're worth only as much as you can successfully negotiate for.

Agreed! But as long as the NMB is pro company the strike threat is minimal... We need pro pilot poltiicans to put in pro pilot NMB positions..
 
Rez, Do you have the names of any other candidates? I will vote for a candidate if he supports my job, but not if thats the only issue we agree on. If I did, I'd be no better than a politician.

If you are an ALPA member you can goto the politics and legilation section of the website..

Also, informed voting on your local races....
 
Agreed! But as long as the NMB is pro company the strike threat is minimal... We need pro pilot poltiicans to put in pro pilot NMB positions..

Agreed also. With the inability to strike, one's hands are tied up behind their back. There is no doubt a lot of leverage is taken away in negotiations.
 
Give to the anti terror PAC. Support your personal issues ala cart...

This is where you lose major credibility. Anti-terror is a "personal issue" in your mind? You can't possibly be serious. The only true responsibility of the federal government contained in the Constitution is the common defense of the citizens of this country. It isn't secondary, and it isn't something to take care of later on after you've satisfied your "pro-pilot" concerns.

I simply will not vote for a candidate that I believe to be soft on terror, no matter how pro-pilot they may be. Period.
 
Provide for the defense of out nation eh?

Here I was thinking that the constitution was only there to prevent States from Granting Titles Of Nobility on Citizens.
 
This is where you lose major credibility. Anti-terror is a "personal issue" in your mind? You can't possibly be serious. The only true responsibility of the federal government contained in the Constitution is the common defense of the citizens of this country. It isn't secondary, and it isn't something to take care of later on after you've satisfied your "pro-pilot" concerns.

I simply will not vote for a candidate that I believe to be soft on terror, no matter how pro-pilot they may be. Period.

Your last sentence is where you lose creditbility.. And your emotional need to punctuate what you've said....

The world agenda is anti terror.... It doesn't matter who has control of Congress... The anti terror issue will be addressed. This is like saying only one party could defeat the Nazi's. Or men are better pilots than women.

Also, the war on terror is part of the fear strategy... Should it be addressed? Of course.. but it shouldn't be the tunnel vision focus..

Listen Joe Rogan, at some point I want to live a life instead of being consumed with the "terror factor."

Do I have to sacrfice my pension, hourly rate, work rules etc for the "war on terror' meanwhile, managment is getting fat off my concessions, productivity and low wages... How does that work? If I am to prioritize the war on terror as an airline pilot then so should my management...

I mean if the war on terror is you big issue then go enlist...!
If abortion is your big issue then go work for an abortion organization.

Me? I want to fly jets safely in the world economy. You don't mind if I get paid justly to do that do you? There are lots of military personnel that need to be flown overseas to fight the war on terror (ATA, World, North American).. And they need to be flown by highly skilled and fairly compensated Air Line Pilots. (read When the Airlines Went to War by Serling)

Somebody has to fly jets in this country. It might as well be us.. and we might as well get paid justly for it... The war on terror will be around alot longer than us. In addition, Europeans do both.. they live thier lives and fight terror.

How long are you going to fight the war on terror? when will it be over? Who says it is over? Am I to sacrfice my entire air line career for the "war on terror?" Meanwhile my CEO just got a new corvette... The CFO of Mesaba just got new furniture in three rooms!
 
Your last sentence is where you lose creditbility.. And your emotional need to punctuate what you've said....

Emotion? Nope, I don't vote based on emotion. I look at the voting record of each politician and make a determination on who is better for my country. Your idea of voting on a single issue and all else be danged seems to me to be much more "emotionally" based.

The world agenda is anti terror.... It doesn't matter who has control of Congress... The anti terror issue will be addressed. This is like saying only one party could defeat the Nazi's. Or men are better pilots than women.

Yes, I agree that everyone has the same goal of defeating terrorism, but each side has different ideas about how to accomplish that goal. It's up to each of us to determine which candidate(s) has the right ideas to accomplish that goal, and all other goals that are important to us.
 
Emotion? Nope, I don't vote based on emotion. I look at the voting record of each politician and make a determination on who is better for my country. Your idea of voting on a single issue and all else be danged seems to me to be much more "emotionally" based.

The single most important issue: My family. Nothing is more important than my responsibilites and accountability to my family. After I vote my career I can tackle any issue I like. But if the bank is trying to repo my house then to hel! with abortion....

Your one size fits all doesn't work. ...you vote what is most important then work the other issues as they come. This is not a "Single issue and all else be danged" methodology. As I said in my last post which you failed to quote is.. you vote your career then work the other issues (phone calls, letters, PACs, activism) as they come along.

You are trying to "have your cake and eat it too".

Quote this: How do you address abortion (or your fav issue) if you can't pay the house note??? (there are allot of pilots who have sold thier houses over the last five years.)



Yes, I agree that everyone has the same goal of defeating terrorism, but each side has different ideas about how to accomplish that goal. It's up to each of us to determine which candidate(s) has the right ideas to accomplish that goal, and all other goals that are important to us.

How isn't important to me as long as the job gets done. If you need results and it needs to be done your way that is your choice and your vote...







What does Paul Foley do?
He laughs all the way to the bank while we struggle.



Should you have an anti Al Queda or anti abortion signature line? :)
 
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How isn't important to me as long as the job gets done.

That's the problem. The job doesn't get done in many cases. Economic policy is an excellent example. The two parties have radically different ideas about what tax policy is best for the economy. Both can't be right, because they are mutually exclusive. You have to decide which one will work. Is the economy important to your family? If so, then you need to decide which candidates can best handle the economy. Just voting based on which candidate claims to be "pro-pilot" is too simplistic, and you are doing yourself, your family, and your country a disservice by voting based on such a simplistic basis.
 
That's the problem. The job doesn't get done in many cases. Economic policy is an excellent example. The two parties have radically different ideas about what tax policy is best for the economy. Both can't be right, because they are mutually exclusive. You have to decide which one will work. Is the economy important to your family? If so, then you need to decide which candidates can best handle the economy. Just voting based on which candidate claims to be "pro-pilot" is too simplistic, and you are doing yourself, your family, and your country a disservice by voting based on such a simplistic basis.

Are you going to quote and address my entire post or just cherry pick the part you feel comfortable with.....

I can tell you after working in the late 90's economy and then the 2000's, I'd much rather have a pro pilot Congress than this one....

Let's see.. 90s. Airline job, then upgraded. Then got a better job, upgraded too.

2000's- Displaced. Furloughed. New job "starting over" upgraded, withheld, furloughed...
 
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I don't think we have to quit our jobs to even the supply and demand out, but this industry is plagued with wide eyed pilots who's main agenda is to have the title of "Airline Pilot" and wear a uniform, and fly a jet.

Wages will rise, when as a society (pilot's) get up in an interview and laugh all the way out the door when a company quotes the starting wage. But that does not happen. Instead you get, "Yeah sure, no problem, that's fine, great, I will do that, for that amount, that would be great, where did you say I go to get my uniform?"

I love my job, and I am paid what I think is fair to good for what I do, and where I do it. If not, I would move on and find something else to do. It starts at the bottom, wages that is.

I am anti union in it's present third party form. They have an agenda, and it is not ours. There needs to be a union, formed BY PILOTS FOR PILOTS. Regardless of carrier, ONE UNION. And the representation for the union changes often, ie; everyone takes a turn at the table. This way, when a Mesa gets started, pulls their crap, EVERY carrier would shut down. Think how that would work.

But, this union would also have to work FOR THE COMPANY(s) involved. It is not all about "stickin it to the man". A company has to be profitable to be competitive.
Mark

That's because new hire pay is about as hige in the agenda for the union during contract talks as the number of fly swatters required in the cockpit. Come on man! Newhires have to pay there dues so that somenody else doesn't lose 50 cents an hour.
 
Are you going to quote and address my entire post or just cherry pick the part you feel comfortable with.....

You keep editing it and adding things to it so quickly that's it's hard to keep up. ;) Which part would you like me to address?

I can tell you after working in the late 90's economy and then the 2000's, I'd much rather have a pro pilot Congress than this one....

Interesting, seeing as how the congress in the late 90s was virtually the same as the congress we have right now. Remember, the Rs gained control of both houses in '94. The massive hiring and pattern bargaining that we enjoyed in the 99'-01' timeframe took place while we had a wide Republican majority in both houses of Congress.

Let's see.. 90s. Airline job, then upgraded. Then got a better job, upgraded too.

2000's- Displaced. Furloughed. New job "starting over" upgraded, withheld, furloughed...

What caused the change? Do you think your career took a nosedive because of the politicians in office, or was it possibly caused by a massive terrorist attack aimed at our industry? Pointing fingers at Congress and the President for the present state of our industry is ridiculous. They certainly haven't helped our plight, but they didn't cause it either.
 
Sorry, but that's just not how the world works. We have too many other things to think about. The war on terror, out of control gov't spending, entitlement programs that will soon be bankrupt and start draining the general fund, tort reform, abortion, and the list goes on and on. You can't simply vote on a single issue. You have to look at the overall picture and pick the candidate that agrees with your issues and values the most. Pilot issues are important, but they are just one set of issues out of hundreds.

I can't believe it - I agree with PCL_128 on something!
:beer:
 
Are you going to quote and address my entire post or just cherry pick the part you feel comfortable with.....

I can tell you after working in the late 90's economy and then the 2000's, I'd much rather have a pro pilot Congress than this one....

Let's see.. 90s. Airline job, then upgraded. Then got a better job, upgraded too.

2000's- Displaced. Furloughed. New job "starting over" upgraded, withheld, furloughed...

Republicans controlled Congress in the late 90's during the period of prosperity you are referring to. You need healthy airlines if you want to resume the upward bargaining. Giving into terrorists, raising taxes, and increasing regulation isn't the way to do that.
 

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