It's Official - Air Wis Getting Replaced

[crashpad]

The title of this thread insinuates Air Whisky is being replaced. Is it possible that this is simply additional mainline flying being transferred to UAX and not Air Wis being replaced? I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this anouncement is for additional UAX flying not Air Wis being replaced.

These 30 aircraft will fly on some routes previously operated for United by Air Wisconsin Airlines.


At what point does being in denial boarder on complete disillusionment?

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Let me sidetrack here for a moment.....

Can the Dash/Q400 do the Aspen route?

 

[Mongolikecandy]

USAir is liquadates by summers end, now what happens to Wisco?

Then management gets their $125 million back as a debtor-in-possesion loan and then hopefully then we figure it out from there. Remember, East Shore is second in line to get their money back from sale of assets behind only the ATSB.

And people like you have been saying for almost two years now that Airways is going to liquidate. I have heard it for a while now... "they are going to be gone by spring 04. Definitely by summer's end. They won't make it through the holidays. They are going to liquidate by summer 05" Hasn't happened yet. Notice I put the word yet in there. I am a realist but an optimist as well.

 

[cargojunkie]

good bye piedmont

 

[c152]

Is UAl going to be around??? As far as I can tell there exit plan is, not allow UAL pilots to have a full bottle of water and take flying from AWAC. That sounds like a good plan to me!!! How much was Tiltons bonus?

 

[crashpad]

And people like you have been saying for almost two years now that Airways is going to liquidate.

And since I'm usually wrong, that's even better for USAir. Good to know Wisco kept their ducks in a pen if I'm right. One of my FOs' is someone who quit USAir after 16 years because he saw the writing on the wall...that's a powerful statement.
I don't want Wisco gone, and I doubt they ever will be due to the amigos' resourcefullness and greed. USAir, on the otherhand, is draining the industry as a whole and I believe we'll all benefit sooner from their demise.

And yes, United will be around. They're just morphing into Lakes on steroids.

 

[labbats]

It'll be a moot point when United and USAir merge....

 

[Elvis77]

The best part of this is that I have been paying union dues for 5 years to protect me from this and AWAC flying is going to two non union carriers. What have I got in return? Two paycuts and a crappy magizine. I love that if I stop paying dues I get fired because they negoitate a sh*ty contract. I also love how DW and UAL Alpa brothers sit back and watch it all happen. Hey UAL pilots! Your flying is also getting replaced by these non union carriers. Furloughs can kiss their recall good bye. This just proves how big of a back stabbing industry this is.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

What could ALPA have done to prevent SkyWest and GoJets from underbidding Air Wisconsin?

Did ALPA tell Air Wisconsin management how much to bid?

Did ALPA advise Air Wisconsin management to not buy 70 seaters?

Do you really think losing flying is anything new to UAL pilots? If they're losing flying do you think they care whether it's a union or non-union pilot keeping them on the street? Do you think they were happy to see Air Wisconsin get former mainline flying but sad when "non-union" SkyWest got the knod?

Tell me what you think the role of a union is?
Is the union designed to protect pilots from poor managment decisions? Is the union supposed to magically control the marketplace?
If SkyWest pilots were represented by ALPA would you be perfectly content to see the flying go to SkyWest?

 

[c-wood75]

Bottom line here is that AWAC has lied. They have lied to the pilot group to get concessions, and they have lied to me and everyone else who has interviewed there since with the "we have a contract with United till 2011" speech. Do you think me or anyone else would have wasted their time at this place without an affirmed contract? Or that we would have taken concessions with no contract from united. all lies......and now we in the pilot group are paying for them...

if our union is worth anything at all, they will raise hell about this and hopefully get some money back for all the great hardworking people at this airline, who deserve every penny back from what was stolen from them by management.

"No, No, we dont need 70 seaters for united, we will stick with the 50's.... we are conservative and smarter than everyone." their refusal to grow will kill them in the end. Grow or Die and they chose Die.

 

[Rottweiller]

Funny, many RJ pilots didn't mind replacing mainline flying. Most were against scope. Too bad scope failed (for the most part). Now RJ pilots are being replaced with other RJ pilots. Oh well, I guess what goes around comes around. Go Gojet!!!

You remind me, and probably are no better than something brown and unpleasant smelling that you might tread in walking along the side walk - @$$.

Oh and while I'm at it, GoJet wanna be's, just like when Freedumb started, approach me for a J/S, I'll get your name, kick you off the aircraft and compile the list for all to know.

 

[Rottweiller]

Well, here ya go ladies and gents: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoJet

For all of you hopefuls or anybody that would like to monitor the race to the bottom. It should be entertaining or resourceful, depending on which side of the fence your on.

PtP

Interesting, sign up using your own name now just how dumb can these people be?? Make life so much easier.

 

[millhouse21]

It's quite simple. They will go ahead and buy the jets. Then they will advertise "Who wants to fly a jet?" and all the little whores will be dusting off their knee pads and smiling like a dough nut.

LIttle do they know, they will be flying those 700/900's for 200 wages. They will be the bottom of the barrell.

It's funny, United is sitting around and looking for the cheapest deal to get them fed, and they just ask " Who has the cheapest hoes"

And the worst (best?) part is that a bunch of them will be pilots who currently work for Uncle Hulie and should know better. It will serve them right when they get their 24 hour "day off" after a 6 day trip. OBTW, their "day off" will be at the Evansville Holiday Inn. Then they'll b**tch about it on flightinfo. I can't wait.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Has GoJets announced a payscale? Anyone know the rates? Obviously everyone will be first year. Another Ornstein. Just what the industry needs. How many of the pilots are going to be coming over from TSA? Are the TSA guys going to publish a list of the union-busters?

 

[Ty Webb]

To be a little more specific, the magic limiting factor for Aspen is airspeed in the balked landing. The aircraft must be able to perform a balked landing procedure at no more than 130kts at max landing weight.

At least that is what i've heard from my company.

Approach climb and landing climb criteria are based on SE climb performance, not speed. Granted, 130 KIAS may be the point on the chart where your aircraft cannot maintain the 2.6% climb margin necessary for an approach climb, or the (if I remember correctly) 1.2% for landing climb performance, but the issue is "rise/run" not airspeed, as your post seemed to indicate.

 

[ILLINI]

Ty, you may very well be correct. I was just posting the short answer that was posted on a company website.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[DiverDriver]

Approach climb and landing climb criteria are based on SE climb performance, not speed. Granted, 130 KIAS may be the point on the chart where your aircraft cannot maintain the 2.6% climb margin necessary for an approach climb, or the (if I remember correctly) 1.2% for landing climb performance, but the issue is "rise/run" not airspeed, as your post seemed to indicate.

Among the climb criteria for Aspen you also have to remember the circling approach and airspeed DOES play apart in radius of turn. The BAC 146 can fly slow enough that their circle is able to meet the radius required. I think that's why the speed issue is so important at ASE.

Note: I've only done ASE in the sim in the CRJ. I've never flown a 146. This is the info I've been given when I asked these same questions before about ASE.

 

[Flyer1015]

17 Bae's * 88 seats = 1496 seats

20 CR7's * 70 seats = 1400 seats

I'm sure Air Wisconsin pilots are just ecstatic about having their flying replaced by 70 seaters with pilots willing to flying them for 50 seat pay....

 

[Crossky]

What could ALPA have done to prevent SkyWest and GoJets from underbidding Air Wisconsin?

Did ALPA tell Air Wisconsin management how much to bid?

Did ALPA advise Air Wisconsin management to not buy 70 seaters?

Do you really think losing flying is anything new to UAL pilots? If they're losing flying do you think they care whether it's a union or non-union pilot keeping them on the street? Do you think they were happy to see Air Wisconsin get former mainline flying but sad when "non-union" SkyWest got the knod?

Tell me what you think the role of a union is?
Is the union designed to protect pilots from poor managment decisions? Is the union supposed to magically control the marketplace?
If SkyWest pilots were represented by ALPA would you be perfectly content to see the flying go to SkyWest?

Good post. I actually think that some UAL pilots prefer new UAX flying go to those carriers (whether they're union or not) who will provide jets for jobs, and we all know that AWAC isn't one who is willing to do that, based on our history with big blue.

This is a big leap for me but here goes: United controls the UAX show, and it's their right to do so. They had been losing tons of $$ for years, due to their own mismanagement. While big blue was losing it before BK, AWAC, SkyWest, and ACA were raking it in with excellent profitability. United thinks 'why are we losing money and they're doing excellent?' That's not fair, let's renegotiate and get lower costs for our UAX carriers, and that will help get us out of BK and keep the court happy'.

Their mismanagement of their own nest is besides the point, and so is "lower cost = lower quality". If they really cared about quality they would've redone the ORD concourse in ORD when they had the chance, like AMR did for Eagle.

Meanwhile, even today, CASM of RJ's is still higher than that at the majors. And I've recently heard stories of Mesup's JO asking United for rate increases, that they're losing money doing the UAX business. 'Welcome to our world, big blue says'.

My company's management played poker, bluffed, and lost to others, plain and simple. But they made some cash in the process (at least $90 Mil + $125 Mil presumably). Good for them I guess, but we want our back pay, and they've got it, it was never passed on to United. That is a whole other story which I'm sure you'll hear about.

I love the modern American free market airline economy. Anyone have a valium?

 

[majordavid]

I really have not heard anyone b!tch about This scab operation Go-Jet getting ten airplanes. Skywest.....yeah, we are a little pissed at you too for undercutting us with 50 seat rates for 70 seats. However, I am a big believer in Karma. Ual has more than shown their propensity for having the express bids come up every two years (ACA, now AWAC) with take it or leave it terms where it is assured you will get screwed. So what will you do in two years, take another paycut? You don't believe it will happen? We (awac) didn't either. But then you undercut us, maybe it will be Go-Jet or CHQ that undercut you next time. back to the original topic. TSA, the industry needs your help. And you will probably need the industry's help to fight off this alter-ego carrier B.S. Make no mistake about it, anyone who flies this operation for less with no union is a SCAB.

 

[FN FAL]

While big blue was losing it before BK, AWAC, SkyWest, and ACA were raking it in with excellent profitability.

Meanwhile, even today, CASM of RJ's is still higher than that at the majors. And I've recently heard stories of Mesup's JO asking United for rate increases, that they're losing money doing the UAX business. 'Welcome to our world, big blue says'.

Big Blue? Smoke some more crack

 

[PBRstreetgang]

"I really have not heard anyone b!tch about This scab operation Go-Jet getting ten airplanes." "anyone who flies this operation for less with no union is a SCAB.

" MajorMoron, One should be careful about the scab label, alpa and other unions have very specific requirements for the scab description. But I imagine the details are not important to you and your ilk, you probably paid for training and still have the credit card debt to prove it! Educate yourself!
PBR

 

[Rogue5]

So riddle me this:

Is the major contributing factor to the cost of an airline operation the operating cost of the flight crew? I’m sure you don’t take that angle when negotiating pay rates with management. I’m sure the argument goes something like “a 7 dollar per hour increase per pilot results in X% small increase in the total operating cost of the aircraft so it is justified.”

Now here the reverse argument is made: SkyWest got this flying because they undercut AWAC’s 70 seat rates. Well, you can’t have it both ways: Either the ability of an airline to operate efficiently and at a lower cost is directly related to the pay rates of the pilots or it is not.

Case in point: SWA 737 drivers make more per hour than UAL 747/777 captains. UAL bleeds cash, SWA rolls around in it.

The difference: many things… Management, efficiency of the workgroup, cost control.

Again, this is not meant to disparage AWAC pilots but I think there are many reasons SKYW is able to offer their product at a better rate (not the least of which is the overlapping route map with DAL served stations: one set of ground people to serve two partners = ½ the cost to operate a station). To rant that the difference of a few dollars per hour in pilot pay is the sole cause of this is naïve.

BTW, compare the five year CAP rates (from www.airlinepilotpay.com):

AWAC 146: $71
AWAC CRJ (50): $60
SKYW CRJ (50/70): $63

SkyWest operates 125 CRJ 50 A/C, and 32 70 seaters. Your argument looses traction when you compute the numbers to see who, on average, has a more expensive pilot operating cost (per hour, per aircraft).

 

[difete]

moron

Yep... morondavid.


Here it goes again... ready?















MORON!!

 

[Crossky]

Again, this is not meant to disparage AWAC pilots but I think there are many reasons SKYW is able to offer their product at a better rate (not the least of which is the overlapping route map with DAL served stations: one set of ground people to serve two partners = ½ the cost to operate a station). To rant that the difference of a few dollars per hour in pilot pay is the sole cause of this is naïve.

BTW, compare the five year CAP rates (from www.airlinepilotpay.com):

AWAC 146: $71
AWAC CRJ (50): $60
SKYW CRJ (50/70): $63

SkyWest operates 125 CRJ 50 A/C, and 32 70 seaters. Your argument looses traction when you compute the numbers to see who, on average, has a more expensive pilot operating cost (per hour, per aircraft).

I saw two separate work groups between Skywest Delta Conn. and Skywest UAX at Rapid City, don't know about your experience.

Your analysis is a little too basic and broad for me. The 146 always has a least 85 seats, a few of our are 100 seat A/C. Play that into your mix. Also there is no such thing as a five year 146 CA at AWAC. Shouldn't you compute the average seniority level in position when considering a pilot group's costs?

BTW AWAC's CRJ 700 CA 5 yr rate is $64.57. If it has more seats we pay more, like it should be. Expect our MEC didn't think that was necessary for the CRJ 700 FO's. Doesn't bother me yet cause we don't have any, but it would.

 

[MELIT]

dipsh!ts

It's funny reading this sh!t. There is nothing you can do about it. You computer geeks should find anouther hobby.

 

[Elvis77]

Why does everyone argue over payrates. No matter how you look at them, pilots are not getting paid enough money to fly and put up with this sh!t. I don't care what regional you are at or what your on time preformance is. You will all get undercut by someone and hopefully it won't be when you have a family or kids. It is almost an insult to my wife when I disappear for half the month and bring home a paycheck half the size I use too. She is a kindergarten teaher making more than a third year fo at a good paying regional(second airline). Now that is sad. Does anyone really like doing this job anymore. I am not talking to the new guy with his boner because he is just out of college and flying a jet for turbo prop rates. Do the older guys think that it is worth putting up with this stuff at a chance of going to a major that has a payscale that is getting smaller. And yes, I am looking for a new job.

 

[Elvis77]

I agree with MELIT. You guys with 6,000 posts need to turn off the computer and get out more. I am sure some of you guys wonder why you don't have girlfriends, now you know.

 

[MELIT]

Why does everyone argue over payrates. No matter how you look at them, pilots are not getting paid enough money to fly and put up with this sh!t. I don't care what regional you are at or what your on time preformance is. You will all get undercut by someone and hopefully it won't be when you have a family or kids. It is almost an insult to my wife when I disappear for half the month and bring home a paycheck half the size I use too. She is a kindergarten teaher making more than a third year fo at a good paying regional(second airline). Now that is sad. Does anyone really like doing this job anymore. I am not talking to the new guy with his boner because he is just out of college and flying a jet for turbo prop rates. Do the older guys think that it is worth putting up with this stuff at a chance of going to a major that has a payscale that is getting smaller. And yes, I am looking for a new job.

Pu$$y

 

[Bluto]

I am sure some of you guys wonder why you don't have girlfriends, now you know.

...is it 'cause chicks don't appreciate my superior sense of humor?