Is this what it's come down to?

[scubabri]

Just saw a couple ads on avianation.com

F/O in Chicago, requirements 2500tt 100me, 4 year degree, pay 18-20k

F/O for Hawker 800, requirements 4500tt, 2500me, 1500 turbine, uninterupted 1st class medical for 5 years

I'm seeing more and more crap like this. I bust my ass, spend 50k+ to get ratings, build time, give up my life, and with 1500tt, and 200me, according to my boss, I'm not even qualified to fly an Aztec, without 500me

This is just nuts, will it ever go back to something more sane, or am I stuck being a flight instructor for the next 10 years?

sb

 

[wingnutt]

huh???

...so any yahoo with 15/2 should be able to hop into the right seat of an 800 then, right

 

[mainah]

Supply and demand. That's what this is. When the economy recovers and the airlines are doing well again this will change. Look at this situation from the employers view. They can hire you at 1500 and 200 or they can hire someone with more time and jet experience. Lower insurance that way and with everyone trying to save money sometimes that what happens. Hopefully this will start to change relatively soon. Best of luck.

 

[scubabri]

yahoo

This is the point that I am making. Before the economy took a nosedive, 1500/200 was considered qualified for a good majority of F/O positions as well as a good majority of PIC piston multi jobs.

Now that the economy is bust and there are a large supply of higher time pilots out there looking for work, someone with 1500/200 becomes a "yahoo" required to "get some time under your belt" and become "more qualified" for the position.

I guess that the economy drives how experienced a pilot is.

 

[Rogue5]

I guess that the economy drives how experienced a pilot is.

No, the economy determines the average level of future employee experience available to an employer: This is Econ 101.

I remember a few years back when I was instructing coming into my old boss' office, bummed about burning out. I had less than a thousand hours total time. He pulled his glasses down slightly over his nose and told me, "Hey, when i got my first 'real' pilot job I had over 3,000 hours of dual-given."

* Ouch *

From your time it looks like you (much like me) had started flying in a time when it was 1000/1 and off you go. This was a bubble. In my time flying I have known F-14 pilots who got out of the mil years ago and had to go fly night single-pilot cargo.

Conversely, I know a guy who's dad retired from TWA a 747 Capt who first got his job after answering an ad in the paper. He had zero time.

As the frogs say, "C'est la vie."

Not to belittle your frustration, but put it in perspective. Your time will come.

 

[DCMartin]

I'm seeing more and more crap like this. I bust my ass, spend 50k+ to get ratings, build time, give up my life, and with 1500tt, and 200me, according to my boss, I'm not even qualified to fly an Aztec, without 500me

sb

Are you looking to go corprate or to a regional? Regionals are hiring people with time lower than yours.

 

[scubabri]

I just want to fly charter. Piston, jets, doesn't matter at this point. I know I'm low on time for charter, so, I've got resumes at all the regionals, update every 30 days.

I guess if it's all about hours these days, I guess I'll just keep teaching and hoping for the best.

sb

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Hey man, count yourself lucky. When I was hired by a regional the mins were 2500 TT and 1000 ME, and the Junior Capt was 5 years. That was just to fly a turbo prop.

Corporate jets back then took 3 or 4 k for a job.

Don't biatch.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

It's all about how the economy is doing, who you know, and timing. Back in 1997 or so I turned down a job offer from ASA to take a different job flying 727's. Back then, I knew of a few guys getting on at regionals such as ASA with under 1000 hours!!!! Anyway, thx to the economy, I'm no longer flying 727's for that airline and here I am trying to get hired at the regionals again. Just like the above post said; Supply exceeds demand right now and the airlines are able to pick and choose due to the overabundance of qualified pilots, so naturally they're wanting a 10,000 hour first officer. I'm kicking myself in the a$$ right now, because I should've gone with ASA when I could. Now, I'd be senior and a captain, but dumba$$ me, just HAAADDDDDD to fly 727's. Like Rougue said above, there's alot of the old timers who got hired by TWA, Delta and AA with zero hours by just answering an ad. Times were different then. Hopefully, it WILL get better!!!!

 

[bobbysamd]

Flight time requirements

It's all relative. In the mid-'80s, one needed 3000 total and 1000+ multi to be competitive for the commuters (regionals). There were some exceptions, such as Mesa. For as long as I can remember, Mesa has required only 1000 total-100 multi, but, realistically, one needed far more time to get a phone call.

In the late-'80s-early-'90s, standard mins at virtually every regional were 1500 total-500 multi and an ATP. I didn't get regional interviews until I had something like 2800 total and 600+ of multi, plus my ATP and type (for what it was worth). When I joined this board nearly three years ago, on the tail end of that hiring boom, people were bellyaching about needing 200 of multi. I could scarcely believe my eyes.

The quality of the applicant pool drives true hiring mins. When hiring is good, mins go down. But, don't hold your breath for them to go down anytime soon. First, the furloughees have to be recalled. Then, there will plenty of other high-time people available. Best thing is to work hard, work hard, keep looking for better jobs where you can build better time, and work hard. Did I say to work hard?

Good luck with your efforts.

 

[bafanguy]

Sol R,

When did people get "hired" at Delta with zero time ? I flew there for over 30 years and never heard of what you mentioned.

 

[Clyde]

This is the point that I am making. Before the economy took a nosedive, 1500/200 was considered qualified for a good majority of F/O positions as well as a good majority of PIC piston multi jobs.


Scubabri,

It has been said a lot, that the only thing constant in this industry is change. When I took my first flight lesson in November 1991, the average flight instructor at the school had around 2000TT, 200-500ME, and were very thrilled at the prospect of an interview flying a 310 full of car parts at night.

Fast forward to 1996. Now I'm a flight instructor thinking I'll never get enough multi-time to even be allowed to sit in the Seminole. Commuter's are requiring 1500 hours (down from over 2000 from 5 years earlier) and the charter cargo places are just looking for warm bodies to throw in the right seat instead of the usual 1200 hours. Even some corporate outfits are looking more for people with determination than hours.

1998, with 1000TT and 100ME, I get a job flying larger turboprops full of auto parts. I got this job the old fashioned way, I networked. I kept in touch with a lot of friends from college and we helped each other out. People I instructed with swore up and down that you needed the proverbial 1200 and 2 just to get looked at.

This job led to my next job (also freight) with an outfit flying Lears and Falcons. My hours got me this one. 9 months later, I'm in the left seat.

2 years after starting with the previous company, I was hired with the major I currently fly for. Again, everybody was lecturing on how it's a waste of time to even apply with less than 1000 turbine PIC. I got the interview with 450 PIC jet and hired with a little over 500. BTW, I was also granted an interview with a second major which I politely turned down after being hired.

I know this is a long-winded response, and I apologize for it. So, here is my message. Numbers are just that, numbers. Keep flying and keep applying. Keep sending out and when possible, personally dropping off resumes. Keep meeting people and staying in touch with people. I have no pilots in my family other than me, so I had a lot of work ahead me.

What's set in stone today can become old news by tomorrow morning. Keep your sights set on your goal and don't let anyone or anything discourage or distract you. Finally, I wish you the best of luck. Hang in there.

 

[wingnutt]

nobody was trying to discourage anyone. many of us just get tired of people that attain their own personal "magical" number of hours, and then are appalled when they arent hired into as magnificent of a job as they envisioned that whole year or two ago when they began this illustrious career.

for someone to claim they spent a gazillion dollars on ratings, then "busted their nuts" for a whole ~1000 hours (yes, anything less than 2,000 still starts with a 1) and cant figure out why every corporate X driver isnt banging down their door for their services as an f/o with 80K a year in hand just intrigues the hell out of me.

relax, fly the plane, look for opportunites to keep moving up and youll be fine. perhaps a night cargo job to get you out of instructing, then maybe an ambulance driver in a twin, follow that with some 91 gig in a C90 somewhere, or maybe right seat in a slowtation, etc, etc, etc.

hows that saying go? something about the destination sucking if the journey had no meaning...or some such drivel

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Betcha clyde was able to check a minority block on his application or his father works for that airline.

 

[Clyde]

Betcha clyde was able to check a minority block on his application or his father works for that airline.


Hugh,

I was able to check no on both boxes. However, I did know someone who works for my airline. This may come as a surprise to you, but knowing someone on the inside is half the battle of getting a job.

Since you made an assumption about my credentials, please allow me to return the favor to you:

You are/have:

1: either unemployed or flying some $hit job that you hate.

2: had a few interviews for jobs that, on paper, you were
qualified for, but didn't get hired because they saw right
through you.

3: watched all of your piers move ahead of you and "steal" that
job that should have been yours.

4: lazy and unmotivated so you feel that anyone who busts their
a$$ to make something of themselves and succeeds is
automatically a minority.

5: still living in your parents basement.


Hugh, numbers are not set in stone. Also, for your information, more than 2/3 of my total time was multi-engine turbine. Quality vs quantity. And, in case you didn't know, who you know only gets you the interview. YOU, my friend, have to do the rest on your own.

I was offering some friendly advice to someone who was feeling a little down about the state of the industry. If you don't have anything constructive to say, then you should keep your mouth shut.

 

[Clyde]

nobody was trying to discourage anyone

wingnutt,

sorry if that got misinterpreted. that wasn't directed at anything posted on this thread. it was meant as to not be discouraged by people or circumstances while working on gaining experience.

 

[Timebuilder]

Scuba, all of those higher time pilots, who have no other skill (or one they want to use) and will accept an entry level wage to stay "in the game" will be displacing you and other similar pilots, including me, for years to come. Why? The number of jobs that pay a "traditional" wage, the one we'd aspire to, are shrinking and the number of lower wage flying jobs is increasing. The industry is adjusting to the GLUT of pilots.

When kids figure out that the high pay jobs will continue to wane, fewer will enter the game, and we will be back to equilibrium. It will be better in ten years.

But not a lot better.

 

[DenverDude2002]

I met a nice fellow at a baseball game recently. He was an ex UAL 744 captain/check airman, retired 3 yrs ago, got hired on with UAL during the vietnam war with 56 hrs, no multi, no ifr. UAL paid for him to get his multi/ifr and he went straight to a 727 FE position, then FO, then Capt, then to the DC10 as a capt and spent the last 10 yrs on the 747-400. He retired 3 months before 9/11. Talk about having perfect timing.....

 

[labbats]

I believe all those Vietnam-era baby boomers are going to be forced to retire at age 60 still, right? So movement is inevitable.

 

[bobbysamd]

Timing and luck

Talk about having perfect timing.....

I would call it exquisite.

That gentleman's case was very much the exception. Most people have to work their way up. Then, they have to be lucky. One could be the perfect applicant and interview perfectly. But, if everyone else who comes in that day is similarly perfect, how do the H.R. coneheads choose? I would submit that either names are pulled out of a hat or darts are thrown at a dartboard.

Some people have a golden touch. Anything they touch turns to gold. Others get there eventually after working hard. And, of course, for some, there is you-know-what.

 

[Draginass]

I think the hiring situation is going to be bad for the next 7 years or so. Thousands of heavy pilots on the street. One aviation consultant group sees a lot of regionals being sold off from their major before they get stuck with a bunch of inefficient RJs, high fuel prices, and depressed ticket prices. In a few years there's going to be a glut of inefficient RJs and RJ operators and a lot are going to go bust.

Even if you get hired by an airline, don't consider it a career, just a job . . . . and keep your resume updated. Retirement . . . forget it, it up to you. Management considers you in the same class as the Chinese guy making trinkets to sell in Walmart.

 

[labbats]

Hey, wow. An optomist.

 

[khsgt]

KEEP AT IT!

Scubbari,

Even today there are some getting hired with only 1500 at the regionals...just keep at it, everybody will get their shot. Don't get frustrated and don't quit! I got on with a regional in november of last year with 1530TT. Took me a year and 100's of resume's/updates, but when they start calling, it seems it is all at once. When it rains, it pours, but when its a draught, its really a draught. Just wait for the change.

Greasy side down!

 

[350DRIVER]

I bust my ass, spend 50k+ to get ratings, build time, give up my life, and with 1500tt, and 200me, according to my boss, I'm not even qualified to fly an Aztec, without

Talk to our favorite female poster on the board, English who has ties to get people hired right at 1500TT as a captain in a CJ (citation jet) .. Oh she has, she has, and she has seen it first hand!!!!

pretty comical thread with regards to her posts on the general board to say the least.

3 5 0

 

[ArcticFlier]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned (or if it has, I missed it) is that employment is a lagging indicator of how the economy is doing. It's on the upswing. Just be patient, and it'll happen. That's not to say you don't have to continue busting your a$$ for a bit longer. I got hired in '91, at the tail end of a hiring boom. It's all cycles, man.

Hang in there,

AF