Is this PFT????

[DX Rick]

I walk into a flight school looking for a Basic Flight instructing job. When approached by the flight school owner I explain that I only have my CFI. He tells me, that to be employed by him I must have my CFII and MEI as well.
Now he said he would hire me, but I would have to start my training right away on my CFII and MEI.

So in order to have a job instructing, I would have to pay him money for my CFII and MEI. Sounds like B.S. and PFT to me.

Now I don't expect to get my CFII and MEI for free, but what if I wasn't considering getting it?

This didn't happen to me, but a girl I know. I don't even have my CFI yet.

Onto another question. I have approached several flight schools in the local area to start my CFI training. I have asked the owners of the schools if they hire people who take their program. They all look at me as if I was speaking French. All I have been told is "There is a chance we could hire you"
Am I unrealistic for asking that question?

 

[enigma]

Sounds to me like he was doing your friend a favor. He could havesaid,"Go get your II and MEI, then come apply because I requirethoseratings for my instructor positions".

This could be PFT if he required you to take the courses from him, orifhe required you to pay him for the courses even if you already hadtheratings. That my friend is PFT. If the employer doesn't care whereyougot your ratings as long as you have them then the requirement isjustthat, a pre-requisite so to speak.

enigma

 

[minitour]

If someone told me I had to have a CFI rating that I didn'tnecessarily want or need, I'd take a walk. Especially if I had topay them to get it just to work there. Is this PFT? I'dhave to say so. You are paying them for a rating you need to work there. If you were hired there with the understanding that you would get yourII/MEI and you could go to ATPs or American Flyers or Airman, then I'dsay no, it's just a condition of employment.

As for being hired at a school you do your training at...I don't thinkyou're unreasonable in asking, but I don't think a "chance" is anunreasonable answer either.

What if they train someone who turns out to be a lousyinstructor? Can he pass the check ride? Sure, but maybe hejust doesn't have it in him to "teach". Should they be obligatedto hire that person? Not necessarily. Maybe they shouldgive you a chance like they'll "interview" you (talk to you and flywith you) to see if you're cut out to teach "their way".

Just my opinion though.

-mini

 

[DX Rick]

This could be PFT if he required you to take the courses from him, orifhe required you to pay him for the courses even if you already hadtheratings. That my friend is PFT. If the employer doesn't care whereyougot your ratings as long as you have them then the requirement isjustthat, a pre-requisite so to speak.

enigma

That's the thing though. He requires you to pay for the ratings through him. That's the only way he will hire you is if you take the classes through him, and they have to start right away.

I think that's a crock that if you want a CFI job, he makes it a requirement that you MUST HAVE your CFII and MEI. Whats next? 1000 of dual given too? A friend of mine got his MEI at ATP, and this flight school had Travel Airs. He said that this kid couldnt give dual in the Travel Airs because he didn't get his multi through his flight school.

I saw this guy (the owner) tell an inquiring CFI that he had to get checked out in all the airplanes...and pay for the time himself before he got the job. When he was done checking the kid out in the Warrior, Archer, 172p, 172r, 182 and Aztek for an hour in each plane. He told the guy he was full on instructors.

 

[DX Rick]

Minitour, nice quote I'm diggin it!

 

[minitour]

Minitour, nice quote I'm diggin it!

I figured you'd like that one...

-mini

 

[enigma]

That's the thing though. He requires you to pay for the ratings through him. That's the only way he will hire you is if you take the classes through him, and they have to start right away.

.

Yep, sounds like PFT.

Where does this shady operator operate?

enigma

 

[DX Rick]

Yep, sounds like PFT.

Where does this shady operator operate?

enigma

Suburbs of Chicago.

 

[JetBlast2000]

Like it or not, this is how almost all of the biggerflight schoolsoperate. They want yourmoney, sure. But they also want you tolearntheir system, stage checks, procedures, etc. Right or wrong, it is parfor the course. Also, if you do wish to move on in your carrier,gettingyour MEI to build multi is one of the best (and cheapest) avenues.

Is he over priced? If so, I might look for a jobsomewhere else. Does he give discounts to employees? Then it might notbe a bad move.

Isit PFT, not really. You’re not taking ajob fromanother pilot in a true sense of PFT’n. He might get a better insurancerate if all instructors were MEI’s. So if you like the school take thejob andget the ratings…

As far as getting hired if you take a CFI course fromthem, a lot of schools will only consider you if you have started at the Inst.(or some comparable) level. Reasonablequestion, and keep looking until you get a good feeling they WILL hire you.

Good Luck

JB2k

 

[DX Rick]

I'd like to get my MEI, but there is kind of a catch. I can go to ATP and get my CFI, CFII and MEI and hopefully get a job with ATP in ARR.

The other is that there are very few twins in the Chicago area, and if you instruct at at school with a twin, it goes to the most senior instructor. Like I said before, some flight schools don't let you get dual twin time if you don't do their program.

 

[JetBlast2000]

Are you willing to move? If not, you need to do some networking. This business is all about who ya know.

If what your saying is true, that twins are in limited numbers in the ORD area, you might consider buying one yourself. Find a few partners and an A & P to go in with you and sell your services. I was very close to doing that in the SFO/OAK area. And I knew of a few a/c in the area that were very successful. An older model Seminole or Seneca I would be a good choice… Low maint/cost and cheap to rent.

 

[wingnutt]

nothing unusual about it at all. like was mentioned, alot of the schools would rather have you go thru their program if you are gonna be teaching it. also, there a more and more schools that wont let you instruct at all (except for ground school) unless you have all three.

 

[PropsForward]

I guess the big question is if his rates are reasonable or pumped up. I know more than a few schools that let their CFI's rent the aircraft at a reduced rate. If his is close to the same, this may be a bargan.

 

[DX Rick]

Don't get me wrong. I want to instruct, I like teaching. I used to be a High School Substitute teacher. I just think some of these flight schools in the local area are getting rediculous with their requirements to be an instructor at their school. My brother was told "Sure, you get your CFI here, you will have yourself a job" then was told "I can't afford to put you on the pay roll"
It's more of the "Shady Operators" that is making it difficult. I want to make the right choice into where I get my ratings.

As far of the twins. I know of 4 in the area. I was told by a D.E. personally not to fly the Aztek in the area because it was dangerous. The Travel Aires only go to the most senior MEI's at the flight school....if they're even running. 80% of the time, they're grounded due to mx.

Mainly I just wanted to know if I was an a s s hole for asking the school owners if I could get hired after going through their program. I don't want to dump that kind of cash to get my CFI if I can't get a job instructing.

I'm going to need the instructing job as a full time job, as I'm about to lose my current job as a Dispatcher on March 28th.

 

[DX Rick]

I guess the big question is if his rates are reasonable or pumped up. I know more than a few schools that let their CFI's rent the aircraft at a reduced rate. If his is close to the same, this may be a bargan.

$130 for a 172 and $50 for an instructor.
His discount is 10% off.

 

[TDTURBO]

$130 for a 172 and $50 for an instructor.
His discount is 10% off.

Rick, if you want to get those ratings cheap and have a job the next day I have you covered.

I am waiting.................................................

 

[bobbysamd]

Flight school employment v. P-F-T

Once more, P-F-T is an employment issue only. If you are offered the job but as a condition of employment you have to remit money to the employer for your training, then it is P-F-T. A secondary test has been if the training in question is esoteric to the company only or leads to a certificate or rating that is universally accepted.

In this case, a further consideration is whether training at that school, or any school, leads to employment with that school. It is not uncommon for schools to require a CFI-I and MEI; in fact, having both makes one more marketable.

P-F-T is generally associated with scheduled-type ops, such 135 or low-level 121, or some sleazeball corporate gigs as a means of obtaining this kind of flight time to increase marketability, meaning, to cut in line in front of others. As was written above, P-F-T is associated with taking away positions that are ordinarily required by regulation, e.g. Gulfstream, or, perhaps, Key Lime Air. One tends not to associate it with flight schools.

With this analysis in mind, if the school in question teaches multi and instruments and you have neither, it is not altogether unreasonable to get them from the school - bearing in mind, once more, that an important consideration when choosing a school is if you can work there after training there. But, as Enigma observed, if you have your ratings already and you have to retake the training from the school as a condition of employment, that, most definitely, is P-F-T.

Now, having said all that, is this the type of P-F-T associated with end-running the system, cutting in line ahead of others who paid their dues and worked their way up, risking pilot interview board blackballing and the other standard P-F-T caveats? Not really - because it's common to earn ratings at a school and teach there. I cannot imagine any interview board castigating you for that - as compared to forking up $29,684 for a temporary FO job.

I make this discussion primarily to raise some general points to consider. I would be wary of this operator simply because he's trying to force your hand. Here again, it's not uncommon, and entirely acceptable and even desirable, to choose a school because of potential employment possibilities. FlightSafety does it, Comair does it, Riddle does it. Other good schools do it. Etc.

Hope all this helps some more. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[mnalpha]

I was hard up big time to get paid for flyin, and went to all the flight schools in MSP. you know the speil wash your planes ect.. just wanta fly, and I have a CFII. The only taker was some siht operation that said if I got my MEI through them they would hire me on. Would of been on the very bottom of a large pole. Almost did it. Thank god I did not. Scew that stuff. If they dont want what you bring to the table, screw em. Oh and it was at Crystal. TFDM

 

[smellthejeta]

Hi Rick,

Which side of ORD do you live on? If it's north, consider West Bend Air at ETB. It's north of Milwaukee by about 45 minutes (I think, it's been awhile), but they have the most reasonable rates on rentals that I have ever seen.

 

[DX Rick]

Hi Rick,

Which side of ORD do you live on? If it's north, consider West Bend Air at ETB. It's north of Milwaukee by about 45 minutes (I think, it's been awhile), but they have the most reasonable rates on rentals that I have ever seen.

I'm in Oak Park, South of ORD-North of MDW
I'm going to go check out Lansing airport on Sunday

 

[mcjohn]

$130 for a 172 seems a little steep unless it's a brand new SP with glass cockpit or something. $50 for instruction seems to be more common but I think it's entirely unaffordable. $180 dual in a 172? You can get dual in a twin for that.