is this pft? or am i bein over sensativ?

[G100driver]

The fact that someone wants to pay for training to increase their marketability to me is totally up to them.

Thats nice ......

 

[Timebuilder]

The reason this has happened is that there is a high supply of pilots. One reason for this is that when these pilots started flying, the big airline jobs were still relatively plentiful, and the flight instructor-to-regional pipeline was flowing nicely. There was really good pay at the end of the rainbow. For some, even a "pot o' gold."

The way this will change is when young pilots-to-be look at the indutry as it is NOW, not as it is portrayed by pilot mills, and decide against spending $50k to earn a $18k starting salary, with top pay of 1/3 of what we saw just a few years ago.

Just as the jews were forced to make bricks without straw under threat of death from Pharoah, all of the pilots mentioned were willing to pay for their own types in consideration of a job, under threat of death of their careers.

In both cases, it was "totally up to them."

 

[bafanguy]

G100,

Long & boring story...too old to recover from possible effects of industry instability on the retirement. So, took the $$$ and ran. Everyone has his own tolerance for risk...they finally got to mine.

 

[Lear70]

The way this will change is when young pilots-to-be look at the indutry as it is NOW, not as it is portrayed by pilot mills, and decide against spending $50k to earn a $18k starting salary, with top pay of 1/3 of what we saw just a few years ago.

That's the problem, there's no one to tell them the truth at that level. All they're getting is the B.S. hype from their flight schools, universities, or pilot mills that "There are lots of great jobs out there and you'll be an airine pilot in no time making megabucks!" So we're going to end up with a huge glut of instructors out there fighting over what few regional jobs there are out there. I don't know if we'll EVER see the hiring boom of the late 90's in the majors again, especially if the RJ scope clauses keep getting whittled down...

In both cases, it was "totally up to them."

I'm not even going there... reading that post p*ssed me off too much to respond right now, and I try not to lose my temper on here.

 

[G100driver]

Long & boring story...too old to recover from possible effects of industry instability on the retirement. So, took the $$$ and ran. Everyone has his own tolerance for risk...they finally got to mine

Banafan, good luck and hang in there. I was just curious.

 

[Stearmandriver]

That's the problem, there's no one to tell them the truth at that level. All they're getting is the B.S. hype from their flight schools, universities, or pilot mills that "There are lots of great jobs out there and you'll be an airine pilot in no time making megabucks!" So we're going to end up with a huge glut of instructors out there fighting over what few regional jobs there are out there. I don't know if we'll EVER see the hiring boom of the late 90's in the majors again, especially if the RJ scope clauses keep getting whittled down...

This is really true... I went through what you could call a pilot mill. It wasn't one of the big ones, you'd never have heard of it if you weren't from this area, but it was a university flight program. And all we heard was that kind of stuff: "coming pilot shortage, pay your dues a little and you'll be set..." etc. The really scary thing to me, even then, was not that they'd paint such a ridiculously rosy picture all the time (I mean, it's marketing, they have to attract students), but instead HOW MANY students bought into it. It seemed like 98% of the people I went to school with were so focused on being airline pilots that they never even tried to see the big picture. Looking back at it, it'd almost be funny if it wasn't sad. Everyone had these specific goals: "I plan on being a UAL DEN 737 CA by the time I'm 40, widebody by 50. How 'bout you?" I felt like kind of a slacker for not having any career aspirations beyond "find a decent job, paying a salary I can comfortably support a small family on, based somewhere I'd like to live, with a decent schedule." (Not that that isn't shooting for the moon these days, but you get the idea.) As we progressed through school and got into the flight instructing stage, these people just fed off each other 'till the airlines were all they thought about. I, meanwhile, went off to instruct tailwheel and aerobatic students at a little farm airport, and probably delayed my career by a year or so, but I think I'm a little better adjusted for it. ;-) Sure was fun anyway.

But yeah, I'm real familiar with this "I'll do anything for a job" mentality. I've never understood it... I mean, great, we all like to fly so we decided to do it for a living. We would have to like it in order to put all the work into it that most of us have. But, hey, the same could be said for lawyers, right? Doctors? Architects? Engineers? These are all professions involving a lot of specialized training, and the only people that would be willing to subject themselves to it would be the people who enjoy it. But try asking a doctor to pay 10-20 grand for "hospital specific training" when he takes a new job - and, oh yeah, on the heels of that request be sure to tell him he'll start out making under 20 grand a year. Try that with a lawyer. An architect, or an engineer. You'd be laughed at every time. Or punched. I mean, these people are trained professionals and a request like that is downright insulting. But in aviation, there are plenty of people that think it sounds like a great idea! People that will get down and lick your shoes for giving them this marvelous opportunity! And they never seem to see that they're eroding the career they THOUGHT they were working for.

And yeah, I know some of the guys from the majors say exactly the same thing about me and my co-workers for flying the RJ's. I won't defend us too much because you're partially right... all I'll say is that, at my airline in particular, when we signed our last contract 5 years ago we were nothing but a turboprop commuter airline, so there was no hope of any real pay. They've since given us almost 300 jets, our route structure spans 3 countries coast to coast, and I'm beyond ashamed of the wages we're flying them for. That is going to change this year though... promise.

Anyway, there's a real long post with no clear purpose. Geez... to think that my second job is freelance writing. No wonder we're usually broke!


Joe
(done venting for a month or two!)

 

[bafanguy]

Stearmandriver,

Greetings from Retirementville where every day is Saturday. I've just read your very insightful post. You are obviously a bright guy, but let a old guy give you a bit of advice.

When all is said and done, YOU are the one who has to be satisfied with the way you've spent your life and career. When you get up in the morning and stand in front of the mirror, YOU are the one who has to be satisfied with what you've done. Did you provide for your family ? Are you happy with what you've done, the way you did it, and what you're getting ready to do on that day? If so, then YOU have won and the people who took a bit of your money have lost.

Beware of listening to the guys from the majors. I was one for over 30 years and I still don't understand them. It's not about PFT or RJ's...you do what you think is right for you and the family and everything else will take care of itself.

By the way, do you actually fly Stearmans? My dad flew them in the Civilian Pilot Training program in WW2.

 

[Stearmandriver]

...When all is said and done, YOU are the one who has to be satisfied with the way you've spent your life and career. When you get up in the morning and stand in front of the mirror, YOU are the one who has to be satisfied with what you've done. Did you provide for your family ? Are you happy with what you've done, the way you did it, and what you're getting ready to do on that day? If so, then YOU have won and the people who took a bit of your money have lost.

Truer words were never spoken, and it's good to hear them from someone who's been there. Congratulations on the retirement, by the way! I hope you find the good corporate jet gig you're looking for. Last week I actually turned down two jobs in three days. Neither of them was worth leaving my airline job for, but it was sure nice to be asked! Hopefully a sign that things are picking up again.

And yeah, I still fly the stearman back home. My old boss at the flight school is a really great guy, and kind of an airshow guru - Gene Littlefield. He made sure I got to fly all sorts of fun stuff when I worked there, and he keeps me on the insurance on the strearman so I can still instruct and give rides for them when they need an extra hand. This way I still get to fly it just for fun too. Great deal! My avatar is a picture taken low over the Illinois river at sunset. That's my head in the low center of the picture; my wife took the shot from the back pit (usually the pilot flies from the back, but after the river run we were going to a grass strip for her to practice landings, so she was in back.) Come to think of it, I should mention that the plane's on leaseback for general lessons, so if anyone's in the Chicago area and wants to fly a stearman, let me know.

See ya,
Joe

 

[bafanguy]

Stearmandriver,

Turned down Two jobs in THREE days ??? I wanna be just like you when I grow up !!!

My dad lived to be 93 and flying those Wacos and Stearmans was the high point of his life. From the hair-raising stories, it's a wonder anyone lived through pilot training !! If you train enough people, there'll be a sufficient number of survivors to carry on.

 

[Stearmandriver]

Stearmandriver,

Turned down Two jobs in THREE days ??? I wanna be just like you when I grow up !!!

Did I sound that arrogant when I said that? Sorry! Didn't mean it that way... just trying to offer some hope that things were turning around. They were both ok jobs, but not the career-type thing I'm looking for, thats all. Both started around 30k. One was charter in East Wenatchee, WA, and the other was a start-up acft mgmt company in the Chicago area.

My dad lived to be 93 and flying those Wacos and Stearmans was the high point of his life. From the hair-raising stories, it's a wonder anyone lived through pilot training !! If you train enough people, there'll be a sufficient number of survivors to carry on.

A pilot that lived to be 93? Thats fantastic! I want to be just like HIM when I grow up! (seriously, no sarcasm). I've always wondered what it was like to do initial pilot training in the stearman though. I mean, we have a portable intercom set up in it now, so you can talk to each other, and we only fly with pilots that already have licenses. I can't imagine flying with someone who's never been in an airplane, that you can't talk to, and can't even see really. There's a little mirror on the bottom of the top wing that you can play charades in, but it doesn't seem like it'd be the most effective instruction.

I've always thought Waco's have a more impressive ramp presence, but man, nothing flies like a Stearman!

Joe

 

[bafanguy]

SD,

No sweat !! Took your message in it's intended spirit. Being a 30+ year major guy means I don't know squat about how to find a job...you give me hope !! That's why I ask questions.

My dad's stories are frightening...getting trapped on top, getting lost, a pattern full of Stearmans flown by guys like him and no ATC, landing in a farmer's field and walking to the house to call the base to have an instructor come get the airplane and having to keep the cows from eating the doped fabric..and we still won the war !!!

 

[Stearmandriver]

SD,
My dad's stories are frightening...getting trapped on top, getting lost, a pattern full of Stearmans flown by guys like him and no ATC, landing in a farmer's field and walking to the house to call the base to have an instructor come get the airplane and having to keep the cows from eating the doped fabric..and we still won the war !!!

I'll have to keep that in mind this year. I land the airplane in my friends field alot, and his neighbor just started grazing cows in the pasture next door. I can just see having to explain to the owner how his airplane is now a tubular frame sitting in the middle of a farm field surrounded by a bunch of stoned cows.

 

[bafanguy]

Yeah, the way the story goes, when the kids started showing up, my dad put his cloth helmet and goggles on the biggest one and told him to keep the cows away until he got back.

 

[Stearmandriver]

Good deal. Maybe my friend's newly acquired stepson will turn out to be good for something after all!



Joe