Is this Pay for Training?

[boscenter]

Fixin2Lnd,

I don't think you understand the importance of the CFI experience. I don't care how you look at it, but those who can do the job the best are those that can teach it. Being a CFI, you should know this; I certainly do.

If you can honestly tell me that you would take away all of your experience as a CFI (if you have any), including everything you learned during that time, and feel just as experienced and accomplished, then you are full of it.

Also, everyone makes mistakes while learning. And I'd much rather make a majority of these mistakes at 250hrs in a Cessna than at 250hrs in someone elses jet.

This argument is pointless. I could care less about this program. Nothing I say is going to change the fact that it is there.

I'm just going to continue paying my dues, and get to a right seat knowing that I worked harder than the 250hr FO that bought his way through.

 

[bobbysamd]

Quality of experience

I am also familiar with the airline hiring process. I spent the better part of six years trying to be hired by a regional airline. I attended five interviews, received interview tutoring, and studied the process heavily. I listened to every one I knew who was hired relate their interview stories. I lost count of the apps I submitted to airlines and the forest full of trees I caused to be slaughtered for resume paper. Not to mention all the time I expended preparing the applications and drafting and redrafting my resume.

No, there are no written rules or proscriptions of which I am aware against paying for training. Hiring criteria is greatly subjective. Some recruiters might pay more attention to you if you earned your degree at one college instead of another, but I doubt they care all that much if you earned As or Fs as long as you have the degree. And, yes, they do care about the time in your logbook. That is the point here about pay-for-training.

Bring in the subjective aspect of hiring. Recruiters do care that you gained your flight time through paid work. They care that the 500 hours of multi you have in your logbook was earned through real professional employment, instructing students, flying freight or checks, or as a legal SIC. If they see that your time was gained through a P-F-T operation, they very well may question the quality and legitimacy of that time. They might wonder if the applicant indeed is as well qualified as his/her logbook suggests. On the other hand, if you indeed earned your time as a flight instructor, it'll be clear how you earned that time. Once again, a lot of hiring criteria is subjective. The commuters hire plenty of pilots who built their time only through flight instruction. I know a few of them.

Finally, I think a lot of the P-F-T controversy stems from how you feel about yourself and the job. For myself, I felt that if the only way I'm going to get a regional flying job is to pay for it, even though I meet every qualification, then I must be a pretty desperate person. But, I never felt that desperate. Flying airplanes for pay and flying for a regional may have been something I always wanted to do, but bottom line is this: it is still just a job. No job is worth groveling for, and paying for training is form of groveling. Maybe it all matters about your pride in yourself and your abilities. Finally, keep in mind the fraud and scam possibilities of P-F-T and how these operators prey upon desperate people. That's what I hate most of all about P-F-T. I hate to see pilots ripped off.

Just more opinions.

 

[Fixin2Lnd]

Where does this chivalry come from? How can you say that 250hrs in a 152 is better than 250hrs in a BE1900?
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Boscenter wrote "I don't think you understand the importance of the CFI experience. I don't care how you look at it, but those who can do the job the best are those that can teach it. Being a CFI, you should know this; I certainly do. "
======
While you're doing the "job best in a 152", you could be learning more advanced equipment. Why sell yourself short and fly circles above corn fields when you could be getting the experience you need to make it to a major. I think you are listening to everyone else or think that you have to have a certain amount of instructor time to build your confidence. Do you think the military puts their pilots through 1000 hours of instructor time before they let them fly a jet? Don't put yourself down and think you HAVE to stay an instructor. If you want to pay, go fly a turboprop. If you don't want to pay, keep doing your job best in your 152.

I still can't see what "paying dues" has anything to do with PFT. It seems like pure economics, especially if you get on with a major 5 years quicker. This could equate to millions over a 30 year career.
Hmmmmm.

 

[kilomike]

Renting a twin not PFT

Renting a twin to go on a pleasure flight is NOT PFT!
Renting a twin is harmless fun and I have no problem with pilots enjoying a recreational flight in a rented aircraft. That's what the Seneca sounds like to me. I sometimes rent a Cessna 172. No difference. Have fun and enjoy!!

On the other hand the Gulfstream stuff involves paying passengers being subjected to flight crew who are also paying for flight time--an insult not only to the pilot but to the paying passenger too!! I'd rather swim with the sharks than feed that stupid scab Cooper!! Hey, Cooper, it's the job of the PASSENGER to make your payroll, not the people who are supposed to be your EMPLOYEES!! Besides, I would not give a penny to support a scab's business anyway. What kind of character does a scab have? NONE!! A PAYING passenger wants to pay for not only a ticket but trust too. When I buy that ticket on an airline I want to know I can trust the people who run it. Cooper, a scab, and those PFT'ers who have less flight time than a would-have-been paying passenger do not earn MY trust. I'll trust a shark first!!

 

[bobbysamd]

Quality of experience

Look, if you can get a legitimate job flying a Kingair or Cheyenne at 250 hours right out of flight school, more power to you. Good luck convincing your company's insurance company.

It's not a matter of selling one's ability short. The reality of the matter is there just aren't many jobs open to 250-hour pilots. There are always plenty of experienced (and better qualified) pilots available for each opening. At 250 hours and just out of training, no matter how well you fly, or how well you think you fly, you are an entry-level pilot. Flight instruction is the classic entry-level job.

Once again, it boils down to quality and legitimacy of experience. If you are showing a P-F-T job, you may not be given serious consideration by anyone and that five-year jump you hoped to get may have been only a waste of time and money.

 

[Fixin2Lnd]

BobbySamd wrote--

"Once again, it boils down to quality and legitimacy of experience. If you are showing a P-F-T job, you may not be given serious consideration by anyone and that five-year jump you hoped to get may have been only a waste of time and money."

======
Where did you get that info? Serious consideration? 5 years is too long. Most of the guys that started at Gulfstream with 300hours were on with a major in their 4th year. By year 5, they were already off probation at United, Delta, American, Northwest, Southwest, etc. They stayed at Gulfstream long enough to get some mult-engine time and then moved on to another commuter or major. You don't stay at Gulfsteam. It's not a commuter job. It's a training school to build some multi-time and MOVE ON. No major cares that you PFT'd. They probably would care if you were a scab, like Cooper.

 

[boscenter]

Fixin2Lnd, get a life!!!

Why sell yourself short and fly circles above corn fields when you could be getting the experience you need to make it to a major. I think you are listening to everyone else or think that you have to have a certain amount of instructor time to build your confidence.

DUDE, what the hell is your problem??? Is too much for you to fathom that some people actually enjoy instructing. I am hardly "selling myself short." And your suggesting that makes me sick.

If it weren't for instructors, no one would have any f*cking jobs because there'd be no one to teach. Don't f*cking tell me I'm "selling myself short" by instructing. That's just disgusting to hear.

You, sir, need to go hand in your CFII because you haven't a clue what instructing is all about. You see it as just some ploy to build hours, which is downright sad. It's instructors with your mindset that always "sell the student short."

I enjoy the students, I enjoy the work, and there's no f*cking way in hell I'd trade any of it in for some lame PFT program with Gulfstream.

Sorry to be hostile, but you sir have crossed the line.

Stop being a troll and get a f*cking life man...

 

[Fixin2Lnd]

Boscenter wrote--

"I enjoy the students, I enjoy the work, and there's no f*cking way in hell I'd trade any of it in for some lame PFT program with Gulfstream. "

---
You seem a little bitter. Do your students enjoy your hostile attitude? Maybe you've had one too many turns in holding on partial panel. That's ok though. Maybe you've done one too many lazy-eights Thats ok too. You may want to adjust your pivotal "attitude" not altitude. Just a suggestion. Relax. Things are going to be OK. Don't have a heart attack over this issue. No one is going to eschew you for being an instructor. It's ok to take pride in instruction. We all were instructors. Most of us still are, in different capacities. You're doing just fine. There, there.

 

[avbug]

Fix2,

I'm not impressed with your attitude. I've seen you appear on two threads now in which your attitude wreaked of bitterness. You lashed out at another poster completely without reason on another thread, and completely out of context with the thread.

You're playing flame bait here; you sound very similiar to another poster who was recently unmasked. (Same person?).

At 4,200 hours you wouldn't be asking what constitutes the definition of pay for training. You'd know. Either you don't know, in which case you don't have the experience you claim, or you're extremely out of touch with the industry. At 4,200 hours, you'd have been flying at least long enough to have been through the heavy controversies concerning pay for training programs that have raged over the past few years. You're not who you proclaim to be.

Overall, the direction of this thread has been misplaced on moral issues and displaced seats. The true rancor of pft is not that airmen are displaced from potential jobs, nor that an individual is paying when he or she sould be paid.

The issue of paying to play is about people getting hired who can't make it any other way. The fact that someone must pay to get their job speaks volumes about their abilities to get hired. The industry is populated with those who crop dusted and flew freight and instructed, who sweated a year of training to get their military wings, who flew ambulance, law enforcement, powerline patrol, towed banners, dropped skydivers, and did every other imaginable thing to earn their position in the cockpit.

Pay for training operations are peopled with folks who bought their jobs. There is a world of difference between those who are in a flying seat because they have proved themselves, and those who bought their way there.

I can tell you which one I want to fly with. I want someone who has proven they can get a job and keep it based on their own merits and abilities. Not someone who couldn't get hired, and bought their position. When the chips are down and the world is coming apart, I'll take my chance with the nuts and bolts of a person who has made the grade, rather than one who made the bank.

I strongly suggest that folks leave Mr. fixin alone and let him burn out. He's just causing heartburn with nothing productive to add. I've seen it happen on this board before; most of us have. At least with the former system we could ban the poster and wouldn't have to listen. Leave him alone, and he will eventually tone down, or go away. My .02.

Blast away, tough guy.

 

[Fixin2Lnd]

That's ingenious; ban someone for questioning a issue. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If it's too hot, then get out of the kitchen. Right?

What I'm gathering from u AVbug, is that you don't have problem with PFT, other than the applicant may be unqualified and an incapable pilot?

You wrote: "The true rancor of pft is not that airmen are displaced from potential jobs, nor that an individual is paying when he or she sould be paid. The issue of paying to play is about people getting hired who can't make it any other way. The fact that someone must pay to get their job speaks volumes about their abilities to get hired. "

-- So if the issue isn't morals but lack of abilities, how do you explain military pilots in this program? I would think they are qualified, or not? Maybe not for the majors? Maybe they are low on total time and so they build the time the airlines want. PIC ME-Turbine/Jet? Several fighter pilots go straight to the majors and some do not. Many of these "incapable" pilots flew in Desert Storm, protecting your freedoms.
I just don't think you can stereotype every PFT pilot or every PFT outfit. Too broad of an issue. It's all about personal choices.

 

[Timebuilder]

Oooooh. A grain of truth!

Yes, it IS about personal choices. That's why so many are sharing opinions formed by years of experience on this issue. In that way, others may be able to make more INFORMED decisions, instead of going off half cocked, hurting themselves, our industry, and maybe some paying passengers.

I hope you have time to address my musings in the other PFT thread. I really do want to know why you have a dog in this fight.

 

[flydog]

Fixin2Lnd

I agree with Avbug. This topic has been fiercely debated before. If you want opinions look at the previous threads

And quit counting Flight Sim 2002 time towards your "4200 TT"

Its about as legit as PFT

 

[tarp]

F2land:

About the second day of every month as the new CA/FO pairing get to know each other you go through a kind of routine. Gear up, Flaps Up, ding-ding 10,000ft, harnesses off, "So how'd you get here?...."

The comraderie of the flight deck is built on listening to and sympathizing with the other pilot's experiences. CFI's, charter jocks, freight dogs, military service, etc. etc. We share stories about our beat up airport cars. How a person can live off pork and beans for a year. How we lived through teaching or hauling in beat up wrecks of planes. Hundreds, maybe thousands of hours as single pilot PIC plowing through who knows what kind of misery. The airline didn't teach me about engine failures, icing, t-storms, pressurization systems, lost comm, etc. I got all those lessons in the school of hard knocks. I've got about a hundred different GA type airplanes in my background, but only two 121 aircraft. When the guy next to me says the airplane has brakes like a mousekateer, rolls like a Seneca on final, floats like a Cherokee and feels like a Cardinal in a x-wind - I can relate.

Will PFT hurt you when you go for your interview to the majors? Probably not. Will your life on the flight deck be enjoyable? Probably not!

CA: "So F2 how'd you get here?"
F2: "Well I did that Gulfstream FO thing - 1000 hours of turbine"
CA: "Ah, so how much total time do you have"
F2: (answer whatever you want)
CA: "So you paid for that turbine time. What did that cost?"
F2: (answer whatever the details are)
CA: "So you must be pretty heavily in debt, huh?"
F2: "Well no, my dad helped me out."
CA: (Silence as he thinks how long this month is and questions if this guy is going to be the one who kills him.)

Respect and friendship are qualities that are earned - fortunately they still can not be bought.

 

[Timebuilder]

Thanks, Tarp.

I've had a 767 pilot in a 172 with me. He sat in the back as we took his grandson for his first airplane ride. This contact led to conversation afterward, of course.

His advice squares perfectly with your post. "Never pay for a job" is a direct quote from our conversation.

I said I'd like to fly a 767.

He said he'd like to fly a 172.

I offered to trade, and we both laughed.

 

[SDdriver]

AMEN TARP!!!!

You said it perfectly!!!!!!!


Fly safe brother.