Is This Normal?

[corp_da20_guy]

My definition of a "good" landing has always been...on centerline and in the touchdown zone. If you waste a few thousand feet trying to get a greaser and then go off the end of a runway...a "smooth" landing surely wasn't a good one. There are many variables and being on the centerline gives many more options. Whether you are flying a 747, a gulfstream, or a 172 if you were to have a tire blow on landing on the downwind side...I'd much rather be on centerline and have that little bit cushion when the going gets "tough."

By the way...this has turned into a really good thread. Happy flying!

 

[FN FAL]

My definition of a "good" landing has always been...on centerline and in the touchdown zone. If you waste a few thousand feet trying to get a greaser and then go off the end of a runway...a "smooth" landing surely wasn't a good one. There are many variables and being on the centerline gives many more options. Whether you are flying a 747, a gulfstream, or a 172 if you were to have a tire blow on landing on the downwind side...I'd much rather be on centerline and have that little bit cushion when the going gets "tough."

By the way...this has turned into a really good thread. Happy flying!

Yea, but if you land to the left of the centerline and the right tire blows, you have more room for manuvering.

 

[Fly_Chick]

Centerline... always insist on the centerline on landings. Do NOT let them get lazy. About 50% of my students consistently land to the left of centerline. Have not figured the reasoning for that one out yet. Once I see them landing twice om a row to the left of centerline, I tell them "I know you can get the left side, let's aim for the right side". They look at me and realize it is my subtle way to get them to the centerline. Always aim for centerline, never let them get lazy.

 

[Bryan D]

.
Centerline? You all must be "super pilots". The grass beside the runway is good for me, a taxiway works also. I can't stand micro managers.

 

[pilotyip]

Lower time CFI's?

Do I notice that most of the centerline only posts are from lower time CFI's? There is a difference between aiming for the center line and landing on the center line. I have always considered going straight down the runway close to the center line of much greater importance than landing exactly on the center line and I instruct that way. None of my students have failed their Pvt checkride for landings.

 

[ePilot22]

Do I notice that most of the centerline only posts are from lower time CFI's?......I have always considered going straight down the runway close to the center line of much greater importance than landing exactly on the center line and I instruct that way.

Yep! I'd agree that straight down the runway is an important aspect of landing, but why not on the centerline if that's arleady what you're aiming for. It's there and if you're aiming for it, land on it. One quick thought, the Jet Blue plane that landed with the bad nose gear, the one thing I remember everyone saying was "what a nice landing and he kept it on centerline".

Do any of you takeoff on the centerline? I mean why taxi out that extra 20' feet to centerline. Just takeoff the same way you land.

Other than practical purposes, I just can't understand why someone would intentionally land off centerline, unless they're lazy or unskilled.

Tom

 

[ePilot22]

I think you're being overly alarmist. Again, you think landing 10' off center line on a 100' runway is unsafe, why would ever consider landing on a 50' runway?

This question is directed towards those that think landing off centerline is acceptable. (Small pistons, not 747, etc.)

Do any of you takeoff on the centerline? I mean why taxi out that extra 20' feet to centerline. Just takeoff the same way you land.

 

[avbug]

Some organizations teach off centerline for visibility. Off centerline is also necessary for formation departures (and landings for those who do them). Off centerline may be necessary for wind, obstacles, runway condition, etc. Off centerline for lights, smoothness, etc. I advocate centerline, but I'm much more interested in weather the pilot can get the long axis aligned with the direction of travel...a lot of pilots are lazy, and don't.

 

[Almerick07]

I'm certainly not going to float an airplane down a 1500' runway just to make it smooth...but a pilot should have the skill to put an airplane down in 1500' without letting it hit the ground like a drunk goose. A tire blow out scenario seems the best reason for landing on the centerline. Although not needed all the time I'm still an advocate of using the centerline. Although a low time CFI...landings should be safe given the circumstances; with short runways it is safer to get the airplane on the ground asap, if you have a longer than needed runway make it a little softer to not put any undo stress on the gear/tires. Any professional pilot should be able to make a short softy IMO.

 

[PaulThomas]

I would be very careful about landing on the upwind side of the RW in a stiff X wind. Most GA aircraft have a tendency to weather vane INTO the wind.

I've noticed that. Once you get a stiff crosswind, the airplane just want to turn straight into the wind. You're not done once the wheel are on the ground.

 

[FN FAL]

Other than practical purposes, I just can't understand why someone would intentionally land off centerline, unless they're lazy or unskilled.

Tom

Our policy manual states to keep the nose wheel off of runway centerline lights.

 

[VNugget]

On wide runways I land off centerline so I can see it out the side, and be able to react faster if I start drifting.

 

[ePilot22]

Our policy manual states to keep the nose wheel off of runway centerline lights.

Other than practical purposes.....

I understand that some airport's runways have centerline light which are not inlaid, and that it would be PRACTICAL not to hit them. However, I am under the impression Almerick07 was not giving BFRs (Flight Reviews) in jets, be-1900s or the space shuttle. I would imagine that the aircraft used in flight reviews for fellow CFIs would not be a commercial airliner, nor cargo transporters. I don't think his flight school has a company policy that states not to land on the centerline. Common Sense!!! I have seen the very same thing. You fly with a fellow pilot, in a single maybe multi (light, small, whatever) piston and the pilot lands and rolls out like he/she is driving on the highway. That is sloppy flying! I guess it's a matter of pride! Some have it, some don't! Yes there are going to be certain situations in which the nose wheel may not trace the centerline, but if it's because you're to lazy to try, well then that is the point of this thread.

 

[FN FAL]

Yes there are going to be certain situations in which the nose wheel may not trace the centerline, but if it's because you're to lazy to try, well then that is the point of this thread.

What about if you are crabbing down the runway? Should you reduce power to let the plane drift downwind so that the nosewheel "traces" down the centerline or should you continue to use power to keep the center of the aircraft's mass on the centerline?

Assume for our "hypothetical" situtation that the 135 Merlin guy that landed ahead of you called the runway braking action "poor" in his pirep, him thinking he had done you a "favor". Assume there is a 200 foot ceiling with 5 miles vis and the crosswind is 90 degrees at 16 knots. Also assume that the plane is a Caravan, so there is no differential thrust. Assume that by the time you had started your descent and made the approach, that there was no chance of ever getting back on top at 8,000 feet again, because icing would prohibit your getting back up there.

 

[Almerick07]

This was a nice calm sunny day, all these hypotheticals are driving me about as nuts as people not flying the airplane to the runway.

 

[arbo]

Centerline, there's no excuse for someone wanting to be called a professional. Lights are usually positioned to the side of the centerline markings, usually the opposite side from the terminal, so if you're on the paint you shouldn't hit them. If you fly two pilot aircraft, or want to, each day you could share the cockpit with a different crewmember, it makes the other pilot much more comfortable if you do things correctly. From established on final the aircraft's center of gravity should be on centerline. I say that because in larger aircraft cockpits should be upwind of centerline if there's a strong crosswind allowing the airplane when ruddered for alignment in the flair to be on centerline. I fly with many new FO's who seem to be content with letting the airplane do it's thing and that can be unnerving. Airmanship Always!

 

[FN FAL]

This was a nice calm sunny day, all these hypotheticals are driving me about as nuts as people not flying the airplane to the runway.

It's all fun and games untill you are in a 30-45 degree crab on a runway, utilizing power and rudder to hold the centerline while looking out the side window, hoping that a patch of exposed tarmac isn't going to add some co-efficent of friction excitement into your morning.

 

[ePilot22]

Assume FN FAL could read and understand the posts and would stop writing hypothetical situations that won't exist on a typical flight review, maybe he could get an airplane, in actual, with a 200' celiling, 100kt-90degree x-wind, no elevator or aileron control, flat tires, with centerline lights raised 1' agl, on a runway 1 mile wide, right on the numbers, but not centerline because conditions were slightly worse than normal during his flight review. Or maybe you would make a good decision and not take-off or GO-AROUND and land somehwere the condidtions would allow for a proper landing. Nope, probably too much to assume, huh?

 

[FN FAL]

Assume FN FAL could read and understand the posts and would stop writing hypothetical situations that won't exist on a typical flight review, maybe he could get an airplane, in actual, with a 200' celiling, 100kt-90degree x-wind, no elevator or aileron control, flat tires, with centerline lights raised 1' agl, on a runway 1 mile wide, right on the numbers, but not centerline because conditions were slightly worse than normal during his flight review. Or maybe you would make a good decision and not take-off or GO-AROUND and land somehwere the condidtions would allow for a proper landing. Nope, probably too much to assume, huh?

there's tons of stuff you don't learn from the PTS.

When I'm doing a BFR and I ask a guy/gal if they can make that field over there and they nod "uh-huh" and I give them the warning that carb heat on and a nice and easy power reduction to idle will be their warning that they are losing the engine, I'll be glad that they make the field they said they could. A nose wheel on the the centerline and landing on the numbers or the touchdown zone markers is the sat BFR (IAW the rest of the FARs)...with smiley faces and gold stars on their log book entry.

One last thing on "hypotheticals"...

1. "hypotheticals" means not hypotheticals.

2. Calling the runway braking action "poor" instead of "nil" is not really helping out the guy behind you.

3. Don't use reverse on single engine turboprops to slow down, if you find yourself crabbing on the runway to hold the centerline.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

My thoughts exactly.



Because the examples you cite are significant deviations with important consequences. Landing 15 feet off center will not cause a near miss with VFR traffic, loss of separation, CFIT or fuel exhaustion.

EDIT:
In my experience as an instructor(admittedly years ago), students who are lax with one aspect of airmanship, are lax with several others as well.


I think you're being overly alarmist. Again, you think landing 10' off center line on a 100' runway is unsafe, why would ever consider landing on a 50' runway?


EDIT:
Depends on the airplane, bad habits follow you from airplane to airplane. 10 feet off center on my current bird on a 100 foot wide runway is getting pretty close to the dirt, a Light airplane it is no factor. A bad habit will follow you to places and aircraft that are intolerant of the bad habit. (I.E. short and narrow runway or something bigger than a 182)

There are many operational differences between a 747 (or even a 737) and most light aircraft. The mark of a good pilot is noting all of those differences and determing what habits need to change. For example, I fly a 182 out of a 7000' field. I don't ever calculate takeoff or landing data. It's probably reckless that from day to day, I don't know whether my plane will need a 740' or 1100' ground roll. But it doesn't matter. I never verify gear down either. Were I flying a 747, I would change those habits.

EDIT:

If you refined the habit now, when it is easiest to do, there is no need to have to change the habit later. Trying to change later is how many many of those retractables end up on the belly.


Why are you resorting to personal attacks?

Was not my intention and your quote left out the beginning of the statement. However, a personal attack was not intended, so if you took it that way I am sorry. I simply stated that if a pilot does not care enough to try to do it right, that they had no business as a commercial pilot.