Is This Normal?

[ePilot22]

There are many operational differences between a 747 (or even a 737) and most light aircraft. The mark of a good pilot is noting all of those differences and determing what habits need to change. For example, I fly a 182 out of a 7000' field. I don't ever calculate takeoff or landing data. It's probably reckless that from day to day, I don't know whether my plane will need a 740' or 1100' ground roll. But it doesn't matter. I never verify gear down either. Were I flying a 747, I would change those habits. Pilot Doc

Become a good pilot now and change your habits. Landing gear up, off centerline, is not the time to determine what habits need to be changed! You're just going to look twice as stupid landing gear up and off centerline than had you just landed gear up. Gear should be checked three times, downwind, base and final! Centerline, Centerline, CENTERLINE! Why land anywhere else?

 

[rfeathe1]

I'd say something, and wouldn't sign them off if they don't start landing on the centerline.

The only time it's alright not to be on the centerline is during a stiff crosswing. I'll get on the side the wind is blowing from, this way if I mess up, I'll be blown on the centerline, not the grass. My CFI is always on my back a
about this one as I always go for the centerline.

I would be very careful about landing on the upwind side of the RW in a stiff X wind. Most GA aircraft have a tendency to weather vane INTO the wind.

 

[Almerick07]

Just some facts...our airport has no centerline lighting. Today I finally confronted one of the instructors since he landed dead on the centerline today. His response absolutely scared me; he said, "I'm scared to turn the airplane that close to the ground." What the heck is up with that, this guy is scared to fly the airplane. safe or unsafe there is nothing making it safer to land off centerline (no lights,controlled airport, runway in good condition...etc. at my airport). Why not do all you can to be safe, there are advantages of staying on the centerline. About 6 months ago a student pilot ran off the runway into a taxi sign scrapping the 152. The exact wording from the pilot on the NTSB report was "improper use of the rudder". We are in the business of being safe, why not be as safe as we can?
Scared to fly the plane....now thats just rubbish because that airplane touched where IT wanted to.

 

[Pilot Doc]

"I'm scared to turn the airplane that close to the ground."

That's clearly a problem.

We are in the business of being safe, why not be as safe as we can?

You fly at an airport with no centerline lighting. It would be safer if to fly someplace that had lighting. How high do you climb for maneuvering flight? If it's less than the airplane's service ceiling, you're increasing your risk in the event of an engine failure. After all ... altitude above you has no value. And it sounds like you fly single engine airplanes -- that's pretty dangerous.

Everything in general aviation is a matter of balancing risk against mission requirement and expense. A large part of that is ignoring trivial risks so that you can concentrate on the significant ones. (Like retraining CFI's who are afraid of low-level maneuvering)

 

[avbug]

I've landed on all kinds of surfaces, gravel, dirt, snow ice, paved, mud, roads, fields, pastures, whatever. A lot didn't have centerlines.

Know what?

It didn't make any difference.

What kills me are folks that are so blistering eager to land on the center, but burn up a thousand or two feet doing it. Then again, better not get too close to those nice hard runway edges...something evil might pop out of the ground and grind you to bits.

Perhaps we'd all be safer if runways were eight thousand by eight thousand with one little stripe down the middle.

My guess is that most of you would STILL be landing on the centerline. Just because it's there.

After all, there's no excuse for not using the centerline, right?

 

[Spooky 1]

Generally well stated AvBug but unless you have positioned yourself between R25L and R25R at LAX and then had someone pass abeam you in a B747 or B777 while on anything but the centerline, you just haven't lived. The tolerance in this case is so small I am afraid that an engine loss, would lead to a catastrophic accident easily. There is no place other than the centerline for either a touchdown/rollout, or a takeoff roll. Amazingly though you see it happen with very experienced crews from time to time. Probably more a case of being lazy as opposed to unable, IMO. I would never releases any new pilots in an OE, that could not put it down on the centerline, wind or no wind.
I think it's called airmanship?

 

[Almerick07]

Thanks for all the input, this thread originally was a question. Since I've been instructing most of my time has come from student pilots, It was my general reaction to question them on not landing on the centerline. Being young and generally inexperienced I still take pride in my landings; soft, on the centerline and getting off the active in a timely manner. The guy I stated above has some issues of his own and if it was a BFR I wouldnt have signed him off, unfortunatly we were just picking up an airplane. I see your argument for not using the centerline it is just something thats always been a part of a "good" landing in my mind. Even with this new outside the box thinking I dont plan on not landing on the centerline. Looks like it is just another pet peeve...

 

[FN FAL]

I guess this should be in the petpeeves thread but I feel it is worthy of its own. I have been noticing a lot of instructors/high time pilots dont put the airplane down on the centerline. This drives me absolutely crazy... This is killing me, I dont know what to do when someone does this...any ideas?

I got a co-worker that's dumber than a bag of hammers, nice guy, but he wears me out sometimes. In fact, he wears everybody out. I think Billy Bob Thorton played him in the movie "Sling Blade".

The other night he takes off and calls me on company and asks, "Hey, where did you break out at?"

I replied, "At the upper part of the crack!"

 

[shamrock]

There is no place other than the centerline for either a touchdown/rollout, or a takeoff roll. Amazingly though you see it happen with very experienced crews from time to time. Probably more a case of being lazy as opposed to unable, IMO. I would never releases any new pilots in an OE, that could not put it down on the centerline, wind or no wind.
I think it's called airmanship?

Just curious, but would you cut someone (like Snakum) some slack for taking off or rolling out a few feet off the centerline to avoid the lights?

When I flew a 1900 I thought it was fun to roll it down the centerline lights but then again that was only for maybe 1500-2000 feet. Now I'm always a few feet off simply because I don't want to hear (and feel) 5000 feet of embedded centerline lights.

 

[avbug]

Spooky,

I go in and out of LAX all the time, but we do things differently there anyway, don't we? Not a lot of places as busy where we can't read anything back but our callsign and transponder code. And of course most of the equipment there should be landed on the centerline.

Last night I rode as a passenger on a B737. On arrival, taxiing to the gate, the airplane jolted, and at first I tought we ran over a large set of chocks. I glanced out the window, and half the winglet was gone. When I exited at the terminal, the airplane we hit had pulled into the adjacent gate. Our winglet was sticking out of his horizontal stab. It happens. Infrequently, but it happens. Big or small.

I believe the other 737, same company, has been taxiing for departure. From my vantage point as a half-awake passenger, I couldn't tell if we were on the centerline or where the aircraft were positioned relative to eath other. When we were taxiing in, the thought did occur to me that due to the number and proximity of other aircraft, I'd be taxiing slower if it were me, but didn't think much about it. The aircraft was about to start a right turn into the gate when the left wing impacted the right horizontal stab of the other aircraft. How exactly that happened I'm not sure...I'm not even sure who hit whom.

I've known two folks who hit things with the wing of a C-130. I've watched people hit other aircraft objects, a flag pole, a cafe, a fuel truck, a large powdered bale of retardant, a car, and a host of other things with wingtips and even propellers. All sorts of stupid pilot tricks, all unintentional, pretty much all by experienced pilots or crews.

Working with students, I strive hard for, and insist on using the centerline. Working in a professional certificate environment, moving paying passengers, I try hard for the centerline, and insist on it from my first officer. In large aircraft, I use the centerline for taxi, takeoff, and landing where possible.

In other operations and when necessary, I use what I need, when I need it. That includes taxiways for takeoff and landing on occasion, even the odd closed runway (once this summer) when it's been warranted. So the same with highways, roads, and so forth. I also follow the glideslope or glidepath where it's availble, but won't hesitate to use all the runway starting at the numbers or before where appropriate, either.

 

[corp_da20_guy]

My definition of a "good" landing has always been...on centerline and in the touchdown zone. If you waste a few thousand feet trying to get a greaser and then go off the end of a runway...a "smooth" landing surely wasn't a good one. There are many variables and being on the centerline gives many more options. Whether you are flying a 747, a gulfstream, or a 172 if you were to have a tire blow on landing on the downwind side...I'd much rather be on centerline and have that little bit cushion when the going gets "tough."

By the way...this has turned into a really good thread. Happy flying!

 

[FN FAL]

My definition of a "good" landing has always been...on centerline and in the touchdown zone. If you waste a few thousand feet trying to get a greaser and then go off the end of a runway...a "smooth" landing surely wasn't a good one. There are many variables and being on the centerline gives many more options. Whether you are flying a 747, a gulfstream, or a 172 if you were to have a tire blow on landing on the downwind side...I'd much rather be on centerline and have that little bit cushion when the going gets "tough."

By the way...this has turned into a really good thread. Happy flying!

Yea, but if you land to the left of the centerline and the right tire blows, you have more room for manuvering.

 

[Fly_Chick]

Centerline... always insist on the centerline on landings. Do NOT let them get lazy. About 50% of my students consistently land to the left of centerline. Have not figured the reasoning for that one out yet. Once I see them landing twice om a row to the left of centerline, I tell them "I know you can get the left side, let's aim for the right side". They look at me and realize it is my subtle way to get them to the centerline. Always aim for centerline, never let them get lazy.

 

[Bryan D]

.
Centerline? You all must be "super pilots". The grass beside the runway is good for me, a taxiway works also. I can't stand micro managers.

 

[pilotyip]

Lower time CFI's?

Do I notice that most of the centerline only posts are from lower time CFI's? There is a difference between aiming for the center line and landing on the center line. I have always considered going straight down the runway close to the center line of much greater importance than landing exactly on the center line and I instruct that way. None of my students have failed their Pvt checkride for landings.

 

[ePilot22]

Do I notice that most of the centerline only posts are from lower time CFI's?......I have always considered going straight down the runway close to the center line of much greater importance than landing exactly on the center line and I instruct that way.

Yep! I'd agree that straight down the runway is an important aspect of landing, but why not on the centerline if that's arleady what you're aiming for. It's there and if you're aiming for it, land on it. One quick thought, the Jet Blue plane that landed with the bad nose gear, the one thing I remember everyone saying was "what a nice landing and he kept it on centerline".

Do any of you takeoff on the centerline? I mean why taxi out that extra 20' feet to centerline. Just takeoff the same way you land.

Other than practical purposes, I just can't understand why someone would intentionally land off centerline, unless they're lazy or unskilled.

Tom

 

[ePilot22]

I think you're being overly alarmist. Again, you think landing 10' off center line on a 100' runway is unsafe, why would ever consider landing on a 50' runway?

This question is directed towards those that think landing off centerline is acceptable. (Small pistons, not 747, etc.)

Do any of you takeoff on the centerline? I mean why taxi out that extra 20' feet to centerline. Just takeoff the same way you land.

 

[avbug]

Some organizations teach off centerline for visibility. Off centerline is also necessary for formation departures (and landings for those who do them). Off centerline may be necessary for wind, obstacles, runway condition, etc. Off centerline for lights, smoothness, etc. I advocate centerline, but I'm much more interested in weather the pilot can get the long axis aligned with the direction of travel...a lot of pilots are lazy, and don't.

 

[Almerick07]

I'm certainly not going to float an airplane down a 1500' runway just to make it smooth...but a pilot should have the skill to put an airplane down in 1500' without letting it hit the ground like a drunk goose. A tire blow out scenario seems the best reason for landing on the centerline. Although not needed all the time I'm still an advocate of using the centerline. Although a low time CFI...landings should be safe given the circumstances; with short runways it is safer to get the airplane on the ground asap, if you have a longer than needed runway make it a little softer to not put any undo stress on the gear/tires. Any professional pilot should be able to make a short softy IMO.

 

[PaulThomas]

I would be very careful about landing on the upwind side of the RW in a stiff X wind. Most GA aircraft have a tendency to weather vane INTO the wind.

I've noticed that. Once you get a stiff crosswind, the airplane just want to turn straight into the wind. You're not done once the wheel are on the ground.