Is This Normal?

[Snakum]

When I first started tagging along on the larger airplanes, I noticed the Captains were consistently landing left or right of the centerline, each doing either left or right everytime, according to his habit. I was dying to ask about it, but felt I should keep my mouth shut and keep my eyes and ears open. I was a rank amateur (I still am) and I was there to learn.

Then, the first time all the planets were aligned and I proudly landed the King Air smack dab on the centerline ... BUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP! The smiling old guy in the left seat said "I'll bet you've been wondering why we don't do that."

Classic.


Minh

 

[Goose Egg]

Landing diagonally across a runway is and old and acceptable means... but unless you've been faced with landing when the crosswind exceeds the aerodynamic controllability of the aircraft to achieve centerline alignment, you probably wouldn't understand.

I can't say that's ever happened to me, so I will defer to avbug for the specifics of a nearly unmanageable (and unimaginable) crosswind. Understand that, as a flight instructor, I have to be mindful that a student may actually listen to me and go out and try something that I recommend, and I sometimes (read always) have that "filter" on while I post here. While I encourage experimentation, I don't think that I could in good conscience instruct a 15 hour solo student to land off the centerline, when their mastery of aircraft control is so rudimentary. First, they learn how to put they aircraft where they intend, which is the centerline for now. Once they have complete control of that, then they can "think outside the box."

The most critical issue with landing is getting the long axis of the aircraft aligned with the direction of travel at touchdown. That accomplished, refinements to landing on centerline are nice...but certainly not critical. Further, if one can put the airplane where one wants each time, then weather one lands on the left quarter of the runway or the right, or on centerline, is really quite irrelevant.

Speaking of "outside the box" thinking, I regularly land a motorglider on a hard surface with runway edge lights. The wingspan of the glider is 57', and the runway is 100' wide. If you do the math, that allows about 22' of "wiggle" room on either side, which is actually a pretty big margin for error. Now, add in the fact that we land these gliders in crosswinds and that a crosswind landing at the demonstrated value puts the lowered wingtip about 12" off the ground. Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that the landing gear configuration in these gliders is conventional, and the seating configuration is side by side, not tandem. Now all of a sudden 22' doesn't seem like that much, and landing on the centerline in that scenario is both relevant and critical.

-Goose

 

[Pilot Doc]

A pilot must certainly be able to put the airplane where he or she intends each time...but as to a need to land on the centerline, rubbish.

My thoughts exactly.

How about being "only" 400 feet off your altitude? "Only" 5 miles off course? "Only" 30 gallons off on your fuel calculations?

Because the examples you cite are significant deviations with important consequences. Landing 15 feet off center will not cause a near miss with VFR traffic, loss of separation, CFIT or fuel exhaustion.

If you let yourself fall into the line of thinking that you describe, evenually you will find yourself in the bushes wondering what the heck happened.

I think you're being overly alarmist. Again, you think landing 10' off center line on a 100' runway is unsafe, why would ever consider landing on a 50' runway?

The larger the bird, the less screw up room you have. On something like a 747 or other large aircraft even when you are exactly on center line your main gear is only a few feet from the weeds and your wings are 50 or more feet out over the weeds. Same holds true for taxi lines, get used to not following them and sooner or later you will take out a wing tip on a building, vehicle, airport sign etc.

There are many operational differences between a 747 (or even a 737) and most light aircraft. The mark of a good pilot is noting all of those differences and determing what habits need to change. For example, I fly a 182 out of a 7000' field. I don't ever calculate takeoff or landing data. It's probably reckless that from day to day, I don't know whether my plane will need a 740' or 1100' ground roll. But it doesn't matter. I never verify gear down either. Were I flying a 747, I would change those habits.

You have no business as a Comm pilot.

Why are you resorting to personal attacks?

 

[pilotyip]

In the P-3 RAG I was taught to shoot for the centerline as a line up technique. But if drift develops close to the ground do not make corrections close to the ground then may cause your to land in a skid, but align the airplane parallel to the centerline and land with the longitudinal axis paralleling the centerline. I teach the same thing when I am checking pilots out in the DA-20. There should be no close in maneuvering strictly for landing exactly on the centerline. This does not mean I get to look out the side window at the centerline, but not being exactly on the centerline is not a big deal on most 100’ to 150’ wide runways. Now landing on the boat centerline is very important.

 

[Pilot Doc]

but not being exactly on the centerline is not a big deal on most 100’ to 150’ wide runways. Now landing on the boat centerline is real important.

That's the important point. Clearly, incompetence or stupidity can put you into the weeds, but a pilot not possessed of those traits can still choose to land off center.

 

[ePilot22]

There are many operational differences between a 747 (or even a 737) and most light aircraft. The mark of a good pilot is noting all of those differences and determing what habits need to change. For example, I fly a 182 out of a 7000' field. I don't ever calculate takeoff or landing data. It's probably reckless that from day to day, I don't know whether my plane will need a 740' or 1100' ground roll. But it doesn't matter. I never verify gear down either. Were I flying a 747, I would change those habits. Pilot Doc

Become a good pilot now and change your habits. Landing gear up, off centerline, is not the time to determine what habits need to be changed! You're just going to look twice as stupid landing gear up and off centerline than had you just landed gear up. Gear should be checked three times, downwind, base and final! Centerline, Centerline, CENTERLINE! Why land anywhere else?

 

[rfeathe1]

I'd say something, and wouldn't sign them off if they don't start landing on the centerline.

The only time it's alright not to be on the centerline is during a stiff crosswing. I'll get on the side the wind is blowing from, this way if I mess up, I'll be blown on the centerline, not the grass. My CFI is always on my back a
about this one as I always go for the centerline.

I would be very careful about landing on the upwind side of the RW in a stiff X wind. Most GA aircraft have a tendency to weather vane INTO the wind.

 

[Almerick07]

Just some facts...our airport has no centerline lighting. Today I finally confronted one of the instructors since he landed dead on the centerline today. His response absolutely scared me; he said, "I'm scared to turn the airplane that close to the ground." What the heck is up with that, this guy is scared to fly the airplane. safe or unsafe there is nothing making it safer to land off centerline (no lights,controlled airport, runway in good condition...etc. at my airport). Why not do all you can to be safe, there are advantages of staying on the centerline. About 6 months ago a student pilot ran off the runway into a taxi sign scrapping the 152. The exact wording from the pilot on the NTSB report was "improper use of the rudder". We are in the business of being safe, why not be as safe as we can?
Scared to fly the plane....now thats just rubbish because that airplane touched where IT wanted to.

 

[Pilot Doc]

"I'm scared to turn the airplane that close to the ground."

That's clearly a problem.

We are in the business of being safe, why not be as safe as we can?

You fly at an airport with no centerline lighting. It would be safer if to fly someplace that had lighting. How high do you climb for maneuvering flight? If it's less than the airplane's service ceiling, you're increasing your risk in the event of an engine failure. After all ... altitude above you has no value. And it sounds like you fly single engine airplanes -- that's pretty dangerous.

Everything in general aviation is a matter of balancing risk against mission requirement and expense. A large part of that is ignoring trivial risks so that you can concentrate on the significant ones. (Like retraining CFI's who are afraid of low-level maneuvering)

 

[avbug]

I've landed on all kinds of surfaces, gravel, dirt, snow ice, paved, mud, roads, fields, pastures, whatever. A lot didn't have centerlines.

Know what?

It didn't make any difference.

What kills me are folks that are so blistering eager to land on the center, but burn up a thousand or two feet doing it. Then again, better not get too close to those nice hard runway edges...something evil might pop out of the ground and grind you to bits.

Perhaps we'd all be safer if runways were eight thousand by eight thousand with one little stripe down the middle.

My guess is that most of you would STILL be landing on the centerline. Just because it's there.

After all, there's no excuse for not using the centerline, right?

 

[Spooky 1]

Generally well stated AvBug but unless you have positioned yourself between R25L and R25R at LAX and then had someone pass abeam you in a B747 or B777 while on anything but the centerline, you just haven't lived. The tolerance in this case is so small I am afraid that an engine loss, would lead to a catastrophic accident easily. There is no place other than the centerline for either a touchdown/rollout, or a takeoff roll. Amazingly though you see it happen with very experienced crews from time to time. Probably more a case of being lazy as opposed to unable, IMO. I would never releases any new pilots in an OE, that could not put it down on the centerline, wind or no wind.
I think it's called airmanship?

 

[Almerick07]

Thanks for all the input, this thread originally was a question. Since I've been instructing most of my time has come from student pilots, It was my general reaction to question them on not landing on the centerline. Being young and generally inexperienced I still take pride in my landings; soft, on the centerline and getting off the active in a timely manner. The guy I stated above has some issues of his own and if it was a BFR I wouldnt have signed him off, unfortunatly we were just picking up an airplane. I see your argument for not using the centerline it is just something thats always been a part of a "good" landing in my mind. Even with this new outside the box thinking I dont plan on not landing on the centerline. Looks like it is just another pet peeve...

 

[FN FAL]

I guess this should be in the petpeeves thread but I feel it is worthy of its own. I have been noticing a lot of instructors/high time pilots dont put the airplane down on the centerline. This drives me absolutely crazy... This is killing me, I dont know what to do when someone does this...any ideas?

I got a co-worker that's dumber than a bag of hammers, nice guy, but he wears me out sometimes. In fact, he wears everybody out. I think Billy Bob Thorton played him in the movie "Sling Blade".

The other night he takes off and calls me on company and asks, "Hey, where did you break out at?"

I replied, "At the upper part of the crack!"

 

[shamrock]

There is no place other than the centerline for either a touchdown/rollout, or a takeoff roll. Amazingly though you see it happen with very experienced crews from time to time. Probably more a case of being lazy as opposed to unable, IMO. I would never releases any new pilots in an OE, that could not put it down on the centerline, wind or no wind.
I think it's called airmanship?

Just curious, but would you cut someone (like Snakum) some slack for taking off or rolling out a few feet off the centerline to avoid the lights?

When I flew a 1900 I thought it was fun to roll it down the centerline lights but then again that was only for maybe 1500-2000 feet. Now I'm always a few feet off simply because I don't want to hear (and feel) 5000 feet of embedded centerline lights.

 

[avbug]

Spooky,

I go in and out of LAX all the time, but we do things differently there anyway, don't we? Not a lot of places as busy where we can't read anything back but our callsign and transponder code. And of course most of the equipment there should be landed on the centerline.

Last night I rode as a passenger on a B737. On arrival, taxiing to the gate, the airplane jolted, and at first I tought we ran over a large set of chocks. I glanced out the window, and half the winglet was gone. When I exited at the terminal, the airplane we hit had pulled into the adjacent gate. Our winglet was sticking out of his horizontal stab. It happens. Infrequently, but it happens. Big or small.

I believe the other 737, same company, has been taxiing for departure. From my vantage point as a half-awake passenger, I couldn't tell if we were on the centerline or where the aircraft were positioned relative to eath other. When we were taxiing in, the thought did occur to me that due to the number and proximity of other aircraft, I'd be taxiing slower if it were me, but didn't think much about it. The aircraft was about to start a right turn into the gate when the left wing impacted the right horizontal stab of the other aircraft. How exactly that happened I'm not sure...I'm not even sure who hit whom.

I've known two folks who hit things with the wing of a C-130. I've watched people hit other aircraft objects, a flag pole, a cafe, a fuel truck, a large powdered bale of retardant, a car, and a host of other things with wingtips and even propellers. All sorts of stupid pilot tricks, all unintentional, pretty much all by experienced pilots or crews.

Working with students, I strive hard for, and insist on using the centerline. Working in a professional certificate environment, moving paying passengers, I try hard for the centerline, and insist on it from my first officer. In large aircraft, I use the centerline for taxi, takeoff, and landing where possible.

In other operations and when necessary, I use what I need, when I need it. That includes taxiways for takeoff and landing on occasion, even the odd closed runway (once this summer) when it's been warranted. So the same with highways, roads, and so forth. I also follow the glideslope or glidepath where it's availble, but won't hesitate to use all the runway starting at the numbers or before where appropriate, either.