Is This Legal?

[flyboyike]

My basic question is, is it legal for a private pilot to go fly a plane like a Cessna 172 and take pictures out the window for a fee that he would charge a client? i.e. "aerial photography"? Or does that require a Comm. license?

According to 14 CFR 61.113 (b) (1) and (2), you're fine.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yes it does, you have to pay at least half if you are taking someone up.

Nope. Sharing expenses only applies when there is a shared (non-commercial) purpose for the flight between the pilot and the passenger.

(I really wish this was taught when private pilot limitations are taught in ground school. It's such a basic rule, has been around so long, applied so many times, but remains so little known, leaving pilots thinking they can safely run a half-cost charter operation as a private pilot without a 135 certificate)

 

[navigator72]

Aerial photography is a great way to make extra money. I probably make more in a couple of hours than most CFI's make in a month.

 

[Tram]

Real simple here..

If your making money, with an airplane, it becomes a COMMERCIAL issue..

 

[777-2H4]

Ok, let me pose another scenerio. Lets say I have someone who wants me to shoot some photos. I'm not a pilot, but I can find some local GA pilots. I go to an FBO and rent a plane. I say to a local pilot, you want to get some more hours for your logbook, tell you what. I'll pay for the plane. You fly. Just take me up and let me shoot some pics, lets fly over this spot. Would they get in trouble for that?

Other than that, the only other way I can think to do it without actually being the pilot myself is to hire a commercial-rated pilot and pay his rate plus a plane. Which seriously cuts my profit margin, because I can't charge an extra-high price for the photo or else the client would go to another photographer at a better price.

 

[CalifDan]

Ok, let me pose another scenerio. Lets say I have someone who wants me to shoot some photos. I'm not a pilot, but I can find some local GA pilots. I go to an FBO and rent a plane. I say to a local pilot, you want to get some more hours for your logbook, tell you what. I'll pay for the plane. You fly. Just take me up and let me shoot some pics, lets fly over this spot. Would they get in trouble for that?

That pilot would need a commercial pilots license to be legal. The compensation or hire issue is the flight time (compensation). So a private pilot can't do it. I'm pretty sure that a private pilot could not even share cost on this kind of flight because the flight is not incidental to the business, it is essential. If you are flying with a few employees to a meeting about your aerial photography business to a nearby city, that is incidental, as long as they are not paying you to get them there. No different than driving. When you start taking pictures that are going to be sold, the flight is no longer incidental.

This is how slippery the slope can be. My brother likes to fish and has friends that he likes to do this with. He asked me if I could fly them, in my airplane to do a fising trip and they would pay for the airplane costs. Answer, no, unless I intended to also go on the fishing trip and the costs shared were as indicated in the FAR's. How would I answer the question, what was the purpose of the flight? If it was to get them there to go fishing it should have been Part 135 or Part 91 with them renting the airplane and me as a paid commercial pilot. I can't do either in my airplane.

Now, what if I went fishing too? Might work, as long as my real intent was to join the trip and not just fly it. Would I still have gone if they drove? Better make sure any witnesses would answer that question the right way.

According to 14 CFR 61.113 (b) (1) and (2), you're fine.

I don't think that this will be a safe haven. The problem is with the incidental part. Like my comment above, if you can conduct the activity in an automobile as well, then it might be incidental. The CFR qouted above is designed to let you carry people in the course of employment (where you are compensated), but not if the employment is the transportation of people. Think automobile again. If you are going to a meeting and you are taking a few people with you, drive or fly, does not matter and you can fly it with a PPL. The second one of them pays you to fly them to the meeting or the company compensates you for the flying part, you need a commercial license.

You are talking about a commercial operation. You already mentioned in your first post the idea of being creative with the regs. That is usually the first indication of trouble. Also, aerial photography is specifically mentioned in 91.501 "Aerial work operations such as aerial photography", the key word here is "work".

If you happen to sell a photograph that you took on any particular flight, I don't think that is a problem as long as it didn't happen to often. If someone pays you to acquire an aerial photo for them, you need a commercial pilot in there somewhere.

If you really want to have some fun, go to the local FSDO and ask them the question just as you outlined it in your first post.

The regulations don't always work the way we wish. My pet peeve is the one about sharing costs. In my airplane, Part 91, same as any FBO, and I would argue better maintained, I can only share the cost of fuel, away tiedown, fees, etc. on a per seat basis. So maybe 25 dollars per hour per seat. If I rent the same aircraft, for about 200 per hour, I can charge 50 per seat per hour. I'm a commericial pilot too, and that makes no difference because my airplane is not a Part 135 operation. But my friends can rent a Part 91 Duchess from the FBO and pay the entire cost of the aircraft and pay me to fly it too. Go figure!!!

 

[navigator72]

You need to take a look at all expenses and charge accordingly. What were you considering charging your clients? The client won't always go with the lowest. MY rates are reasonable but I'm sure with some looking around they can find others who would do it cheaper.
I think the key to keeping the clients coming back for more is:

Offer a great product at a good price
Do the job when you say you are going to do it.
Get the job done quickly
Accept responsibilty for your screw ups (even if you make 0 profit)
Don't lie to the client ( if the client senses you are lying, you will never shoot for them again)
Keep it simple.

If you follow these rules, you will be successful and can charge through the A$$ for your product.

 

[PacoPollo]

My basic question is, is it legal for a private pilot to go fly a plane like a Cessna 172 and take pictures out the window for a fee that he would charge a client? i.e. "aerial photography"? Or does that require a Comm. license?

Now, if it is not legal, are there creative ways of getting around it? Not to be skirting the law, but who would know what we're doing up there in the plane? And who's to say that I'm not simply taking photographs for my own pleasure? I suppose that if I actually did take flying lessons to get my PPL I would meet other students who would like to be able to log some time, so what if I took one of them up and gave them the plane during the time I took the photograph?

Bruce

Sound good to me. It would be hard for a FED to find out. No justification of what you and your"client" are doing up there. Remember you CANT be too naive or by the book in this business....

 

[gsrcrsx68]

You need to take a look at all expenses and charge accordingly. What were you considering charging your clients? The client won't always go with the lowest. MY rates are reasonable but I'm sure with some looking around they can find others who would do it cheaper.
I think the key to keeping the clients coming back for more is:

Offer a great product at a good price
Do the job when you say you are going to do it.
Get the job done quickly
Accept responsibilty for your screw ups (even if you make 0 profit)
Don't lie to the client ( if the client senses you are lying, you will never shoot for them again)
Keep it simple.

If you follow these rules, you will be successful and can charge through the A$$ for your product.

Navigator72,
Can you be more detailed about what you are doing? Maybe PM me with some details. I am stuck at my comm SEL with no real way to pay for my CFI right now. Any helpful ideas would be huge. Equipment, types of clients,stuff like that. Thank you.

 

[PacoPollo]

Navigator72,
Can you be more detailed about what you are doing? Maybe PM me with some details. I am stuck at my comm SEL with no real way to pay for my CFI right now. Any helpful ideas would be huge. Equipment, types of clients,stuff like that. Thank you.

You can do some work for FREE at your local FBO in exchange for your CFI. Thats how I got mine.