Is there a Black List?

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

My apologies, Bobby. I completely misinterpreted what you were alluding to. I thought you were suggesting that a bribe might grease the skids. I am with you on the PFT thing.

While some, including me, might believe that P-F-T is tantamount to a bribe or kickback, I'm glad we agree on at least one thing.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Re: P-F-T

I'm glad we agree on at least one thing.

Hey, don't forget about the college degree!

 

[dash8driver]

well i have proof that being a saint is not a requirement. i watched hugh get hired at 2 airlines already.

this airline thing is like the lottery but with a little better odds. with the volume of applicants out there compared to the number of slots to fill, simple math will show you that not everyone will be hired. not everyone will get an interview or a job in the industry.

i think that most airlines operate on the formal and informal recommendation priniciple in some fashion. fedex is a great example, its commonly said that you wont get a job at feddy unless you know someone there. it could be that the people with the same quals as you knew people that already worked there, and they walked in to give an informal or formal recommendation... even without their knowledge (posting of names of interviewees, etc).

in this industry it can be a curse to not know anyone where you're trying to get hired on at, then again....it can be a curse if people there do know you.

 

[bobbysamd]

College

Hey, don't forget about the college degree!

Absolutely. In something, anyway, and from an accredited college.

 

[mar]

Hiring: Exact Science or Black Art?

You know what? Hopeful pilots have been sold a bill of goods.

They been told (after offering a current credit card number) that airline recruiting and hiring is based on some very exact science performed by highly trained professionals after years and years of research.

What a load of crap. It's more Black Art than anything.

I approach it philosophically: Landing the dream job is like making it to the majors in sports or the Big Screen in entertainment.

Very few will make it and their talent or the purity of their soul has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with it--except for the athlete who actually requires some skill, but you get my point.

The fact of the matter is, it's their company and they can run it however they like. Sometimes however there is some internal disagreement which results in mixed signals being sent out as to exactly who they WANT vs. who they HIRE.

Cathay Pacific: perfect example.

They recruit Americans. I interviewed last year and was rejected. I thought I did a pretty good job at the interview though. My only speculation (since they don't tell you the reason) is that the interviewers are biased against Americans.

Get it? The office monkeys recruit Americans but they don't hire Americans.

So it's important to realize that even though there are tons of books and gouge and seminars out there the bottom line is these are still companies run by humans that have bad days (loose applications), have disagreements (who should we hire today?) or are so unscrupulous that they'd actually charge you to sit in their groundschool.

When I first got started my cousin who is a Capt at USAirways told me that I'd have to suffer a baptism of fire to get started in aviation. He was talking about flight instructing and flying 135.

[shrug]

Right now, I'm afraid he's headed for a funeral pyre.

 

[captainv]

bobbysamd,

it won't make you feel better, but i would agree with others that things have definitely changed. i've seen pilots of all ages, from all backgrounds, at Comair.

still, the majority are airline pilots, military pilots, and Academy guys. and in today's market, it's probably changed back to more what it was like when you were interviewing. certainly there is no shortage of qualified pilots right now looking for a job.

i've heard that Comair has 11,000+ resumes currently on file. with our scheduled deliveries, we plan to hire 125 pilots this year, with no firm plans for growth beyond that.

so, who do you pick? i can give you pros/cons for every type of pilot, from furloughee to military to corporate to cargo to CFI. but even if we were to hire equally from every category, 99% of the applicants will wonder why they didn't get the call.

i've sent resumes off to god knows how many airlines, and i don't think i've ever gotten a response that way.

The only thing i like about Air Inc. is the job fairs. Face time with the recruiters has gotten me all of my interviews. July 01, with low time (but with jet experience) I had interviews lined up with Eagle and Continental Express, of course 9/11 canceled those. July 02, with lots of jet time and a Lear type rating, I got interviews with Comair, ASA and ACA. Pinnacle wanted to interview me in the hotel that same night, but I had plans and they never called back.

don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to help fill Kit Darby's bank account, but that's what worked for me. keep in mind the hiring was still fast and furious. and you know what? in 02, i didn't get calls back from Eagle, Jetlink, Colgan, PSA and others. even at the job fair, with one or two notable exceptions, we all look alike. hundreds of pilot clones running around in our somber dark suits, muted ties and military haircuts. who can tell who the best pilots are? maybe the whole thing is just luck of the draw.

forget "Airline" on A&E. give me "Airline Interview." have camera crews follow recruiters and applicants and show what happens behind the scenes. that's one reality TV show i'd tune in for...

 

[bobbysamd]

The more things change . . . . .

[T]he majority are airline pilots, military pilots, and Academy guys. and in today's market, it's probably changed back to more what it was like when you were interviewing. certainly there is no shortage of qualified pilots right now looking for a job.

i've heard that Comair has 11,000+ resumes currently on file. with our scheduled deliveries, we plan to hire 125 pilots this year, with no firm plans for growth beyond that.

Can you believe the odds, then, of being hired at Comair? I just ran the numbers:

125 potential new-hires ÷ 11,000 applicants = 0.0113636

Meaning you have slightly more than a one percent (1%) chance of being hired at Comair this year. I would bet that DCA grads would have an advantage over the typical garden-variety street applicant type like myself (see my times at left), assuming no age disadvantage in these progressive, enlightened times, simply by virtue of their attendance. The airline and military people would have the next advantage - which is something I can accept, not having that experience. So, for an ordinary street applicant, the odds of being hired at Comair this year are virtually nil.

Having said all that, one should still try. I would acknowlege that being older and a career-changer made me atypical (but still worthy in every way of consideration). But, for someone who is, perhaps, more conventional, it cannot hurt. What is the time needed to complete a Comair app? Maybe a day to work it up to perfection? It'll pay off if you beat the odds, long as they may be.

so, who do you pick? i can give you pros/cons for every type of pilot, from furloughee to military to corporate to cargo to CFI. but even if we were to hire equally from every category, 99% of the applicants will wonder why they didn't get the call.

But, here again, when you present identical, or better, quals as your peers to the same companies to which they're applying, and these companies are hiring from your school, but the only difference between you and them is [insert difference], and they're being called and you're not, and you are persistent and optimistic per Kit's gospel, what else can one possibly think? It doesn't take a rocket scientist, ERAU CFI, Comair CFI or any other pilot to conclude what's going on. To paraphrase Spock, it is logical to conclude that [insert difference] is causing you not to be considered.

hundreds of pilot clones running around in our somber dark suits, muted ties and military haircuts. who can tell who the best pilots are? maybe the whole thing is just luck of the draw.

But, of course! The airlines run the application process, pilots run around like crazy seeking the best training providers, building the best time and obtaining the best LORs, but when it all comes down to it, the pilot recruiters just draw names out of the hat.

<sigh.

 

[JD2003]

Here is a hypothetical for all of you.

Suppose you were hired by a regional and gave them a good year with no sick calls or missed assignments. Then one day you decide that you wanted to go to a different regional, one that is geographically more suited to your needs and has a lower upgrade time.

You quit your job with only a couple of days notice and head for the other regional's recruitment office with a resume in hand and your suit pressed.

You have thier quals but still the thought that you left your former job on short notice haunts you but you wanted to be at this other airline all along so you justify the measures you took.

Any takers?

 

[homerjdispatch]

Why not FIRST GET the other job, before you quit the first?


Seems like that would be the SMART thing to do.

 

[gern_blanston]

Mar, Cathay just hired a buddy of mine (an American). They get gobs of applicants and they only hire a dozen at a time. The interview process weeds out the people they don't think they want. How much research did you do before the interview? My buddy talked to numerous Cathay pilots, bought a couple of hours of 747 sim time, studied everything he could get his hands on about 747's, heavy jet ops, the company (they asked him in the interview if he knew their fleet composition, and he gave it to 'em accurately with no hesitation), and hung out on a couple of forums asking questions and absorbing info. This guy was flying an RJ for PSA, but when he went to the dinner party interview in Hong Kong, he was prepared, when he went to the sim session, he was prepared, when he talked to H.R. he was... Well, you get it. Preparation and presentation, man, and there's still a lot of luck involved.
Most people who feel that they're on a 'black list' aren't marketing themselves as well as they might. "...They don't hire Americans" Sour grapes, my friend, and a load of you-know-what to boot. You didn't get hired. That's a bummer, but you obviosly didn't appear to them to offer what they wanted. Press on.
I managed to black-list myself with one company I was trying to get hired by, not sure how, but they didn't want to hire me even though I was qualified, typed, and ready-to-rumble. My flying career so far = 2 interviews with no offer, 3 with jobs.

 

[ultrarunner]

I know of a guy who was a COEX 1900 ground instructor (still do not have any clue how he got hired with just a pvt at the time & JD on the interview board), he was fired due to sexual harrasment and the fact that they had to re-teach two entire classes over. About 8 or so months later he was hired by Great Lakes as a 1900 ground instructor/first officer, guess what.? He was also fired for the same reasons that COEX let him go. A few months later he was hired by Colgan as a first officer. Present day he is employed by someone else flying a SF340. 4 chances.?? Ask yourself again whether there "really" is a "black list" and just how effective it is.... I was absolutely amazed by how this individual is still employed as a pilot present day. There was also a corporate 91 gig in there somewhere along the lines flying a Falcon. All in less than 3.5 years.

3 5 0

Hmmm, I thought PIRA would have prevented much of this. Wow, wrong again.

 

[Kawasumi_Kichou]

I felt like I was blacklisted after I resigned from Scenic in 1992 to finish school. Graduated in '93 and couldn't get interviewed anywhere '93 to '95 even after sending out hundreds of resumes. Turned 40 in '95 and felt like I was finished as far as an airline career was concerned. After talking it over with several retired captain friends I quit flying altogether (way too expensive if it's only going to be a hobby) and went back into aerospace and broadcast/motion picture engineering work. Now I'm teaching aviation classes part-time at a CC and thinking about getting current again. But it's so expensive compared to what I make now that I'm not convinced that it'll be worth it. I'm 50 now and know there will be no further professional flying for me in this life.

Blacklisted? I don't think so, but it sure felt like it.

 

[Irish Pilot]

The whole putting up your resume in the crew lounge amazes me. What amazes me more is that people would actually take action to make sure that a certain person did not get hired into their airline. Get a life.

I have people I dont enjoy personally or working with...but they would have to be quite the piece of work for me to want to go into the training-hiring dept. and say "You dont want this person." You are screwing with someones career and life! Everyone has certain people that they dont get along with...but that doesnt make him/her a bad person. Just because you dont get along with them doesnt mean others dont as well.

Blows me away...I dont dislike anyone that badly that I would take away their chance at a prospective place of work. Thats just cruel. This industry is hard enough as it is. You would have to be a mean sonovab- to do that to someone. Maybe its just me.

So some poor guy who is trying to get on with his dream job-airline that he has been working his whole career and life to get to...only to be shot down because some person he didnt get along with in his past has the gusto to go burn him down? How in the hell could you do that to someone? Honestly...yuck.

 

[gern_blanston]

A guy would have to be pretty weak to torpedo someone that way.

 

[Irish Pilot]

A guy would have to be pretty weak to torpedo someone that way.

And yet I hear of it done....