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Is the Eclipse 500 revolutionize
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The eclipse 500 may sell, it may not. So far it's been all about a dog and pony show, lies, and gross misrepresentations that border on the criminal, to the public.
It may yet become available and be all they say, for less than a million dollars. Not everything is best because it's cheapest...in fact, very little is.
Aviation has been full of promises over the years. I think this is another one. I hope they succeed. I hope the stop falsifying their data to the public. I hope they turn out to be an honest company. It's a far cry from where they are now. We'll see.
It may yet become available and be all they say, for less than a million dollars. Not everything is best because it's cheapest...in fact, very little is.
Aviation has been full of promises over the years. I think this is another one. I hope they succeed. I hope the stop falsifying their data to the public. I hope they turn out to be an honest company. It's a far cry from where they are now. We'll see.
JetPilot500
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The airplane will be revolutionary, IMO.
But IMO, it will have a terrible safety record. That due to the people flying it, not the equipment.
It will take the place of the Bonanza and Baron as the new "Doctor Killer." We will see more people out there with "More Dollars than Sense."
I think it shoulda been made centerline thrust. That woulda helped some with safety.
What will make this airplane more dangerous than the Bonanza, is that the low-time pilot non-professional pilots will feel like they can handle any weather cuz it is a jet and it has radar and anti-ice.
Just my $0.02,
JetPilot500
But IMO, it will have a terrible safety record. That due to the people flying it, not the equipment.
It will take the place of the Bonanza and Baron as the new "Doctor Killer." We will see more people out there with "More Dollars than Sense."
I think it shoulda been made centerline thrust. That woulda helped some with safety.
What will make this airplane more dangerous than the Bonanza, is that the low-time pilot non-professional pilots will feel like they can handle any weather cuz it is a jet and it has radar and anti-ice.
Just my $0.02,
JetPilot500
In regards to the previous post, any loss of one of the engines on the Eclipse won't affect the handling characteristics much. IMO. I understand how centerline would not have no difference other than power output and increased drag, but the engines on the Eclipse are very close together providing not much of a change in handling if an engine fails.
I think Eclipse's training program will be very strict since it's going to be perceived as the new "doctor killer" and therefore the company will do everything in it's power to make their customers demonstrate skills with stringent standards before the type sign-off. Hence, the other reason Eclipse is keeping all customer training in-house under their control...with the exception of the supplemental training from UND Aerospace before they enter the type program.
The combination of technology, great management team, vision , financial status and supporters will help this company succeed. Take a look at the credentials of some of the VP's and members of the Board. Pilatus is successfull and their original VP of Engineering is now at Eclipse heading the engineering division.
It will take many setbacks and strings of bad luck for Eclipse not to revolutionize air travel. I just hope everyone who believes in this new idea supports the infrastructure needed to achieve a personal air transportation system, i.e. NASA's program (SATS), engine suppliers, FAA with installing affordable landing systems ($500,000 instead of a $1-2 million ILS) at smaller airports and other needed equipment, communities willing to support small airports is another, all in all I think this will accelerate this into the future significantly, we just need to keep up with it.
And no I'm not an endorser for Eclipse. I just am interested in the company.
AeroDMB
I think Eclipse's training program will be very strict since it's going to be perceived as the new "doctor killer" and therefore the company will do everything in it's power to make their customers demonstrate skills with stringent standards before the type sign-off. Hence, the other reason Eclipse is keeping all customer training in-house under their control...with the exception of the supplemental training from UND Aerospace before they enter the type program.
The combination of technology, great management team, vision , financial status and supporters will help this company succeed. Take a look at the credentials of some of the VP's and members of the Board. Pilatus is successfull and their original VP of Engineering is now at Eclipse heading the engineering division.
It will take many setbacks and strings of bad luck for Eclipse not to revolutionize air travel. I just hope everyone who believes in this new idea supports the infrastructure needed to achieve a personal air transportation system, i.e. NASA's program (SATS), engine suppliers, FAA with installing affordable landing systems ($500,000 instead of a $1-2 million ILS) at smaller airports and other needed equipment, communities willing to support small airports is another, all in all I think this will accelerate this into the future significantly, we just need to keep up with it.
And no I'm not an endorser for Eclipse. I just am interested in the company.
AeroDMB
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I have to agree with JetPilot500 and AvBug...
I think the problem will be the people flying it, and I don't think it will come in at the costs they are claiming...
You will get some Doctor/Lawyer/Stockbroker/etc... in there and think he can handle anything because he is in a "Jet"...
Just my $0.02
I think the problem will be the people flying it, and I don't think it will come in at the costs they are claiming...
You will get some Doctor/Lawyer/Stockbroker/etc... in there and think he can handle anything because he is in a "Jet"...
Just my $0.02
Dan CFI/CFII
I'm a dippidy doer
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The biggest problem with the Eclipse right now is the lack of engines. Don't know how many of you caught this, but Eclipse has dropped Williams because the EJ-22 just couldn't produce for the plane.
If there's a simple way to increase the cost of a touted low cost--it's by changing the one things that cost was based upon--the engines. Haven't read anything on these message boards about the Williams/Eclipse break up, but it's big news here in town (I live in Albuquerque). Front page news for us.
We'll see how they recover--I guess I don't have to worry about the high speed passes down the runway to get in my students way now. That's a good thing--I guess...
We shall see, they've got some terribly talented engineers, and they work awful hard, but that engine was just burning up, so I'll be curious to see the solution they come up with.
Dan
If there's a simple way to increase the cost of a touted low cost--it's by changing the one things that cost was based upon--the engines. Haven't read anything on these message boards about the Williams/Eclipse break up, but it's big news here in town (I live in Albuquerque). Front page news for us.
We'll see how they recover--I guess I don't have to worry about the high speed passes down the runway to get in my students way now. That's a good thing--I guess...
We shall see, they've got some terribly talented engineers, and they work awful hard, but that engine was just burning up, so I'll be curious to see the solution they come up with.
Dan
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enigma
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AeroDMB said:
Hey Aero,
All of my 4000hours of jet time except 20 hours in a 737-300 simulator, have been in an airframe with tail mounted/near centerline engines. I can tell you from experience, that a Lear takes as much rudder as does a 737 when flying single engine. My memory of the 73 is that it was actually easier to deal with than the Lears I was flying at the time I did my 73 training. Unless the Eclipse is trememdously underpowered, it will require the same pilot skill that any other similarly engined jet powered airframe does. IE, it will kill those who disrespect it as soon as a Baron will.
regards,
8N
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I believe this small jet market has strong potential in the near future. Sept. 11 stoked fears in many people but with no feasible alternative to flying the airlines, people stick with it. Once something percieved to be better is introduced...e.g. point-to-point air taxi service...people will flock to it, even if it is slightly more expensive. In addition, the jet will probably become the next big thing for owner/operators. I can only hope that I will be able to afford one eventually.
Eclipse is widely known to be one of the most higly capitalized startups in aviation history and with firm orders (with deposits)reported to be well over 2,000, they will most likely be able to achieve their advertised selling price through economies of scale. I don't see any reason to think why they cannot be successful, even though the snag with the engines may set certification back a bit...if their systems are as highly integrated with the EJ22 as they said.
Eclipse is widely known to be one of the most higly capitalized startups in aviation history and with firm orders (with deposits)reported to be well over 2,000, they will most likely be able to achieve their advertised selling price through economies of scale. I don't see any reason to think why they cannot be successful, even though the snag with the engines may set certification back a bit...if their systems are as highly integrated with the EJ22 as they said.
bobbysamd
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Eclipse
While I'd hope it wouldn't happen, as Falcon Capt. said, this airplane could be the new "doctor killer." It takes good training and a certain amount of experience to fly a jet, not to mention recurrency training and proficiency.
I remember V1 cuts during my Citation type training. We took our flight training in the actual airplane. I recall that as a light twin driver that continuing with the engine cut went against every instinct. Of course, with practice and training that goes away. But, it's still different when the most advanced aircraft you've spent any time flying is a Baron.
I haven't followed it that closely, but I'm skeptical of the entire project. Hasn't there been problems with the engines?Falcon Capt said:
While I'd hope it wouldn't happen, as Falcon Capt. said, this airplane could be the new "doctor killer." It takes good training and a certain amount of experience to fly a jet, not to mention recurrency training and proficiency.
I remember V1 cuts during my Citation type training. We took our flight training in the actual airplane. I recall that as a light twin driver that continuing with the engine cut went against every instinct. Of course, with practice and training that goes away. But, it's still different when the most advanced aircraft you've spent any time flying is a Baron.
Last edited:
sanford&son
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Jdog,
That's really part of the problem. It isn't the most highly capitalized project in history. The 2,000 investors and desposits and all that garbage is hype. The company anounces that something will happen...something spectacular and large. All these investors have signed on. A large fractional opeation is going to fly the airplane. Then it goes away. But wait, we have an identical deal in the wings, and this one's a sure bet.
Invest in us, because we have the market licked. That's us. Except the story keeps changing. It's all smokescreens and lies. Now the engine issue. Sounds like the BD-5's big brother has come home to roost.
That's really part of the problem. It isn't the most highly capitalized project in history. The 2,000 investors and desposits and all that garbage is hype. The company anounces that something will happen...something spectacular and large. All these investors have signed on. A large fractional opeation is going to fly the airplane. Then it goes away. But wait, we have an identical deal in the wings, and this one's a sure bet.
Invest in us, because we have the market licked. That's us. Except the story keeps changing. It's all smokescreens and lies. Now the engine issue. Sounds like the BD-5's big brother has come home to roost.
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