Is paying for a type lowering the bar?

[Waylon]

I just wanted to know if anybody else feels that paying for a type rating is lowering the bar. If nobody would pay for the type what would an airline that requires it do shut down. I think it's hilarious that everybody wants the bar raised but nobody ever wants to blame the biggest and maybe one of the best LCC to fly with for lowering the bar to the ground for such a stupid requirment. I feel this whole industry is just one big game of hooker and pimp and which one do you want to be?

 

[wahoo250]

I agree.

 

[saviboy]

I agree too

 

[Captain Overs]

I've found it interesting that the ones who bought that "type" to go to that "LLC" carrier are the ones usually critical of the "regional" pilots who sign substandard contracts. I guess it's all your perspective.

 

[wahoo250]

but then again you can probably get a 737 type for well im looking at 6400 at the top of the page. Then you look at the pay rates that you can potentially earn and if you do get a job with the type, It pays for itself. I guess its like a company saying they dont want to hire because you dont have your masters degree. Sort of....I still dont like it.

 

[sladude]

i also agree. and on top of that i feel all of the lcc's are lowering the bar. not just the one that requires a type

 

[crashpad]

It's a retorical question...probably by someone who spent the money and was then straifed out of the interview. Sorry, but they know what they're looking for. There is'nt a pilot alive who would'nt pay for it if they knew they'd get the job. I've never felt it's right and consequently never bought a rating. Ironically, I was still given an interview.
There is something wrong with this kind of company and a true aviator would never be happy there...a cowboy or someone with their own photo on the nightstand, yes.

Believe it or not, I had a roomate at a crashpad who kept a framed photo of himself, but he righteously moved on....to ATA!

 

[Captain Overs]

market dictates price. As long as there are thousands of pilots willing to work at Mesa rates then all of us suffer. I'm not picking on them, but until the bottom feeders our brought up we all suffer.

 

[WhiteCloud]

This is getting old. SWA hires type rated 737 pilots. SWA doesn't require you to pay for a type or pay them any money to get typed. If someone wants to work there so bad and doesn't want to pay for a type they need to get hired somewhere else, get type rated and then apply. There is no reason for them to hire pilots that are not qualified to fly the 737.

 

[Cosmo1999]

Ahhh it isnt required to BUY a type for employment just to HAVE one. They dont say ok goto XXX school and spend XXX $$ before we hire you. All they require is that you are typed before GS I belive if your lucky enough to interview without one. They can make the qualifications whatever they want. If there are not enough qualified people out there with a type then im sure the requirement is dropped. Anyway you can look at it like an investment. One you get to work for a stable company making more than most pilots at other airlines. Two I believe the washout rate dropped to almost nothing from what I have heard. Also remember if you dont have a type and dont want to get one no one is forcing you to apply. Lowering the bar would be paying them for indoc, sim, IOE, etc. The only way to drop this requirement would be to have everyone apply w/out type and then turn down the job when they tell you to go get it. Sorry that wont happen for the foreseeable future. Also if you happened to work somewhere else where you got a 737 type well then your all set.

 

[mkingmei]

Lowering the bar for sure

The whole "type rating" to get the job is crap. What about the guy/gal that is furloughed and has, for example, a bunch of time in something like the MD80, Airbus or even FO time in the 737. This person is not qualified to fly either the same equipment or something similar.... They can't be that different.

Hire on qualification not whether or not they will pay. I don't blame the pilots I blame the management that put that crap out there. Just pits us against one another in the long run.

$.02

 

[Wasted]

What I want to know is, is requiring a pilot's license lowering the bar? Shouldn't they train us to fly right from the beginning? They do it overseas. The military even pays you while they train you to fly. I think this whole thing about requiring licenses, and so many hours and what not, is lowering the bar!

 

[WhiteCloud]

What I want to know is, is requiring a pilot's license lowering the bar? Shouldn't they train us to fly right from the beginning? They do it overseas. The military even pays you while they train you to fly. I think this whole thing about requiring licenses, and so many hours and what not, is lowering the bar!

Good point. Fact is that most of us (myself included) would not qualify for those type of programs due to high college GPA requirements or other indicators of aptitude that identify (purportedly) smart, exceptional people. The good thing is we own our education and don't owe the company store or the some government for a lifetime of labor like some of the ab initio pilots do.

 

[D.sanchez]

1. "There's no reason to hire pilots that aren't qualified to fly the 737."
2. "Southwest doesn't require you to pay for a type rating or pay them any money to get typed.

1. Stupid argument- All a person needs to be a "qualified to fly" F.O. on a 737 is a commercial pilot AMEL/Instrument or ATP AMEL.


2. Another stupid argument- see the below statement-
Let's get this straight, I'm gonna go to another airline, wait to make captain there, then get my type rating there, then quit and apply to southwest to start as an FO. Jumping these hurdles is harder and more expensive (in the short and long run) than buying the type rating... so in effect, SWA is still making you pay for your training. I hate to say it, actually no I don't- SWA is effectively a PFT company. They do it slightly differently than the other PFT outfits, but, in reality, and stupid arguments aside, they are PFT.

Later

 

[WhiteCloud]

1. Stupid argument- All a person needs to be a "qualified to fly" F.O. on a 737 is a commercial pilot AMEL/Instrument or ATP AMEL.


2. Another stupid argument- see the below statement-
Let's get this straight, I'm gonna go to another airline, wait to make captain there, then get my type rating there, then quit and apply to southwest to start as an FO. Jumping these hurdles is harder and more expensive (in the short and long run) than buying the type rating... so in effect, SWA is still making you pay for your training. I hate to say it, actually no I don't- SWA is effectively a PFT company. They do it slightly differently than the other PFT outfits, but, in reality, and stupid arguments aside, they are PFT.

Later

OK....I'll reply. You need a little lecture anyhow.

1. Getting a 737 type means you are qualified on a 737 and know something about 737's. That makes you easier to train for the right seat. Without the type you are not qualified to enter the training program since it's based on some previous 737 competence/knowledge. Simply having an ATP or Commercial instrument doesn't do that for you or the company and flying other large jets doesn't do it either.

2. There are many type rated 737 pilots that got their type working somewhere else. So many, in fact, that they don't need to look an non-type rated applicants with out 1000 hours of turbine PIC. They hire Captains that are 737 type rated. I respect that. Although you might not want to hear it...SWA doesn't need your application if you don't have a type in the only type of airplane they fly. They have their applicant needs met.


What's smart is getting a 737 type if you wish to apply and get a job a SWA. What's really stupid is wanting desperately to work there but not getting the type somehow. It isn't gonna happen in this decade and all the whining about about SWA being or not being PFT isn't going to change it.

 

[TWA Dude]

First of all, there is no 'bar' to be lowered. It's just a made-up weapon that some angry pilots have concocted to vent their frustrations on other pilots and companies.

Second, SW has had the 737 type requirement for many years, including back in the 90's when the legacy carriers were hiring like crazy. Whining about it is pointless. Don't like it? Don't get one.

I have around 800 turbine PIC which means despite my experience I'm not even qualified to apply at SW. I'm not whining about it. SW can hire whomever they wish.

 

[sleepy]

I guess if SWA didn't have a large pool of pilots who got their 737 type at brand X, or were willing to pay their own money to get a 737 type, then they would have to change their hiring practices.

Does only hiring typed pilots save them money on training cost? I would think that the FAA would still require them to go through an approved training program as new hires. Do they get to have few sims, or does this give them a lower wash-out rate? Do typed pilots still wash-out at SWA. Just a few things that I have wondered about the place.

 

[D.sanchez]

This is getting old. SWA hires type rated 737 pilots. SWA doesn't require you to pay for a type or pay them any money to get typed. If someone wants to work there so bad and doesn't want to pay for a type they need to get hired somewhere else, get type rated and then apply. There is no reason for them to hire pilots that are not qualified to fly the 737.[QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by D.sanchez
1. Stupid argument- All a person needs to be a "qualified to fly" F.O. on a 737 is a commercial pilot AMEL/Instrument or ATP AMEL.


2. Another stupid argument- see the below statement-
Let's get this straight, I'm gonna go to another airline, wait to make captain there, then get my type rating there, then quit and apply to southwest to start as an FO. Jumping these hurdles is harder and more expensive (in the short and long run) than buying the type rating... so in effect, SWA is still making you pay for your training. I hate to say it, actually no I don't- SWA is effectively a PFT company. They do it slightly differently than the other PFT outfits, but, in reality, and stupid arguments aside, they are PFT.

Later

OK....I'll reply. You need a little lecture anyhow.

1. Getting a 737 type means you are qualified on a 737 and know something about 737's. That makes you easier to train for the right seat. Without the type you are not qualified to enter the training program since it's based on some previous 737 competence/knowledge. Simply having an ATP or Commercial instrument doesn't do that for you or the company and flying other large jets doesn't do it either.

2. There are many type rated 737 pilots that got their type working somewhere else. So many, in fact, that they don't need to look an non-type rated applicants with out 1000 hours of turbine PIC. They hire Captains that are 737 type rated. I respect that. Although you might not want to hear it...SWA doesn't need your application if you don't have a type in the only type of airplane they fly. They have their applicant needs met.


What's smart is getting a 737 type if you wish to apply and get a job a SWA. What's really stupid is wanting desperately to work there but not getting the type somehow. It isn't gonna happen in this decade and all the whining about about SWA being or not being PFT isn't going to change it.

I need a lecuture? No, you need to prove to us that a person who doesn't have a type rating is not qualified to fly a 737. I brought this up because many airlines hire people to fly the 737 with no type rating, and these guys are qualified. The FAA doesn't require a type rating to be an F.O. Only SWA requires the type rating. You don't need to have a type rating to be qualifed. Your blanket statement (in your first post) that only typed people are qualified to fly a 737 was wrong, and I called you on it.

Without the type you are not qualified to enter the training program since it's based on some previous 737 competence/knowledge

Okay, now you've gone from saying there's no reason for SWA to hire people that aren't 'qualified' to saying there is a reason... that reason- according to you SWA's training is geared for people who have their type rating. HELLO, that's the whole point of this thread. SWA's training is geared towards people who have bought their Type (or as you said, gotten thier type from somewhere else.) So now, you've gone from "no reason" to "the reason is thier training is geared towards people w/ 737 experience." Because (according to you) the training is geared towards people who already have a type rating, people like me, and others on this thread, and indeed all logical people can conclude that SWA is effectively a PFT comany, whose training is geared towards those who have paid for their type rating.

2ND point: Your statement that SWA hires guys w/ types from other airlines missed the point I was trying to make. It does'nt speak to the idea that SWA's hiring practice is effectively PFT. Here's why. The average guy who want's to work at SWA who has no prior 737 experience has two choices-Pay for a type rating or go work at another airline and wait till he's typed. I have already shown that this guy has to pay for his type, either by buying his type rating from a school, or by working his way to the top of another airline before going to SWA and having to incur alot of expenses (moving, starting over at another airline loss of senority, sitting reserve) True, SWA has hired lot's of furloughed guys, I think thats great. The problem is, by bringing up the fact that SWA is hiring lot's of furloguhed guys and guys from other airlines, you're telling us that we have two choices- either buy a type rating, or work our way up at XYZ airlines, then jump to SWA. Either way paying, as I have shown. Either way, we are paying to work at SWA.

 

[88_MALIBU]

I looked into buying a Citation type to better market myself for a corporate job. I was going to go to the outfit in San Diego. After many experienced pilots told me its useless without time in type, I decided against it. If your gauranteed a job with it and its a good paying job then what the heck.

 

[wahoo250]

If anyone was told "You go spend 6000 and ill pay you 100,000" they would do it. Its an investment. Do I agree with it...no I'm greedy, but yes I would do it, its called good business. I dont want to fly for southwest though. PFT for a 20,000 job...no I would not

 

[NEDude]

Yes, it is lowering the bar. Don't get the type. And don't even think about applying to SWA.









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Good, now hopefully a few less people in front of me in line for SWA. (just put the deposit down on the type).

 

[Captain Overs]

Dude fricking chill out!! SWA requires a type because they save money on training. It has nothing to do with being able to fly a 737 or not. Get a clue.

 

[328dude]

SO I guess paying for my multi to fly cargo was PFT. This sucks!!!!!

 

[Wasted]

SO I guess paying for my multi to fly cargo was PFT. This sucks!!!!!

Yeah, face it, one or another, we all P'dFT. 737 type? So what? Get it if you want to work there. No different than requiring you to have an education and a pilot's license.

 

[aspire]

something to consider:

as the legacies try to more closely match some of the practices of the LCCs to stay competative. i.e. no food, no pillows, no first class, etc.
if all the remaining airlines decided to start requiring a type in their respective fleet types i.e. UAL A320, DAL MD-88, Airtran B-717 ,etc. as a condition of being hired would that collectively lower the bar for the whole industry. if so, who would you blame?
-aspire

 

[TWA Dude]

aspire:
It's supply vs demand. If it's advantageous to them and if they can get away with it they will. What's happening to the piloting profession is pure economics.

 

[johnny taliban]

Its interesting to note that most of the folks complaining about SWA are commuter pilots who have already demonstrated their willingness to whore themselves out in the first place. Pot calling the kettle black if you ask me. You have to have alot of nerve to b!tch about SWA when you already work for PEANUTS!!!

 

[jobear]

If you get the job fine, but going out and buying a type without a solid job offer is insane. Would I do it? personnally no, but I have my own reasons. Would I try and argue/talk you out of it? No, but I would probably laugh about it.......

where's my Oxycodone?

Jobear

 

[Crossky]

Its interesting to note that most of the folks complaining about SWA are commuter pilots who have already demonstrated their willingness to whore themselves out in the first place. Pot calling the kettle black if you ask me. You have to have alot of nerve to b!tch about SWA when you already work for PEANUTS!!!

Easy now with the whore calling bud. Most all of us, at some point, would like to call ourselves professionals too. A 50 seat RJ can only pay so much simply per the economics, the cost per seat mile is still higher than even SWA's, even when you work for 'PEANUTS'. IMO the SWA interviewees who paid for their type rating training are gamblers who simply are taking a risk that they hope and pray will pay off, which is their right to. Unfortunately in my experience, the good majority of pilots I've known who've interviewed there haven't been hired, the first time in most cases, and in multiple tries in other cases. This doesn't give me warm fuzzies to go out and get typed when I have 0 jet PIC and barely made $30K last year.

Due to their type requirement, SWA does have lower training costs, and remember they were the first airline to require two tickets for obese passengers who require two seats (they do give refunds for the second seat, post flight, if the flight wasn't full, kudos to them for that). This is a company that is religious on controlling costs and showing appreciation to their employees for contributing their part in doing the same. Nothing wrong with employees having such an active part in their success.

However, does a law school graduate pay for being a law clerk and bar exam? Does a doctor pay for his internship, medical equipment training, and other training? PFT still pertains to SWA, but in their case, it stands for Pay For Type.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

I know two people who bought CRJ types for a ZW program and didn't get hired. Now they fly for ExpressJet. What a great investment...