Is NOW the time to join the Military?

[BoDEAN]

I was talking to my father the other night, and he asked me "Why don't you join the military, or the reserves?" I told him I never really thought about it. I guess I am not up for a long comitment and don't want to be stationed overseas. He told me since I have a BS degree in Aviation Science, 400 total hours, Commercial/Instrument rated ASEL/AMEL, that I would be a prime candidate for getting into the military and buidling hours.

Has anyone gone this route, when being in similar shoes as myself?

 

[HueyPilot]

"I guess I am not up for a long comitment and don't want to be stationed overseas"

If you WANT to be a military pilot, then the commitment shouldn't play much of a factor. If you WANT to be a UAL pilot who get's his/her experience from the military, then perhaps it is. I joined the military in 1992, and at the time I was planning on "doing my time" and getting out. Here I am, 10 (almost 11) years later.

I'm wondering why you wouldn't want to be stationed overseas? Are you married? That would really be the only reason that I could understand. I lived in Germany as a kid, and went back to Italy for a 3 week TDY. Currently, an accompanied overseas tour is on the top of my assignment preference sheet. Living and working in another country is a challenge in the respect that you must overcome and get used to living a different way, and you'll definitely get homesick for a good old American cheeseburger, but the benefits you get from seeing things from a different viewpoint, and all the experiences you'll have are enormous, and very much worth it.

If you're afraid of leaving family and friends, here's the truth: they'll still be there when you get back. If they aren't, they weren't good friends to begin with. And nothing's going to stop you from taking 2 weeks of leave and catching a Space-A flight back to the States to visit with Mom and Dad. I've met a few other people who are international-phobic as you claim you are, and it simply boggles my mind. They are missing a huge chance to experience something great, and they are simply too close-minded to realize it.

"...that I would be a prime candidate for getting into the military and buidling hours. "

Building hours for an airline career later in life is simply an added benefit. But if you're joining the military for that sole purpose, you'll hate your job and quite frankly, won't do the military a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** bit of good.

The military is not an employment agency. It does not exist to provide career training. It exists to employ combat and mobility power anywhere the people of the United States see fit. There is no union. There is no such thing as tailoring your schedule to fit your own personal priorities. If they want you in Afghanistan during your 10 year wedding anniversary, then your wife will be alone and you'll be flying around the dustbowl on that day. If the Air Force wants you to fly your aircraft to Ramstein for a stage on your daughter or son's birthday, then you'll just have to celebrate their birthday early or late, your choice.

Here are the Air Force core values, and I'd read them carefully:

1. Integrity First

2. Service Before Self

3. Excellence in all you do

If you're generally a good kid, #1 will take care of itself. But #2 and #3 requires a good gut check before you sign yourself up. If you're joining the military just to build time for UAL or AA, then you're going to have a hard time fullfilling the requirements of Nos. 2 and 3.

I'm not trying to bash you or tell you that you can't hack it, but just from reading your post, it makes me wonder whether or not you need to bother with the military. Make service to your country more important than getting that airline job and I'd welcome you just like any of the other newbies.

 

[navhnt]

I second what HueyPilot posted. Additionally, the military could care less about your civilian ratings. You will get no benefit in the application process from civilian ratings and/or flight time. In fact, lots of civilian time can be a double edged sword in military training. While it will obviously give you a leg up in the early phases over people who have done little flying, I have seen it work against people as they think they already know how to fly and don't need to work hard in training. Military training is specific to the way we do business, while the basics never change there are differences and some people have a tough time adapting.

NAVHNT

 

[CCDiscoB]

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy

Do you know why AF pilots are so hard over on pilot rest? Because the AF is notorious for hammering pilots involved in a mishap when the pilot is at fault. If a pilot busts pilot rest and subsequently is involved in a mishap he will be found casual. Career over!

Speaking of mishaps, shall we discuss Naval mishap rates vs. AF mishap rates? You don't want to go there.

The term "sleep when you're dead" should only apply when you're in Las Vegas!

 

[JimNtexas]

Additionally, the military could care less about your civilian ratings. You will get no benefit in the application process from civilian ratings and/or flight time. ...

That's not true. Prior civilian flying is a definate plus for a UPT applicant, because that's the only thing that can be shown to correlate with sucess at UPT. It will certainly break a tie. I'm pretty sure it is factored in the actual numerical scoring system.

My understanding is that when you are actually in UPT you have to forget your prior flying experience in order for your prior flying experience to help you at UPT.

I third what HueyPilot posted. I would not recommend the military just as a job or a place to fly. Certainly the active force is a terrible place for someone who isn't willing to move a lot.

The Air Guard is just about the best deal in aviation, you might want to look into that.

Jim

 

[BoDEAN]

Thanks for the replies.
I guess my initial post came off differently from how I intended it to. I see a gap, or 5+ years before having any chance with a major airline. Between then and now, hours will have to be built. I was told the Military was one route to go. I would not join the military, not caring about anything but building hours. That is not my intent at all.

 

[firstthird]

you'll be in more than 5 years

The commitment after wings used to be 7 years for all Navy and 8 years for jet pilots and I think it is still at least that long. If you are just looking for the next 5 years, probably the military isn't the place. But if you are willing to do 9 years, then you are in the ballpark. Usually your flight training will take 18 months to 2 years until you have wings on your chest, at which point you'll owe uncle sam either 7 or 8 years (these maybe slightly different/longer now, not sure, probably Patmark or some of those guys know). I'd recommend it, I enjoyed my time but it isn't all about the flying. Study up on it, research the services, talk to guys you know who have served, and if you still think you want to be a military pilot, by all means, get the ball rolling.

 

[airludy]

Prior flight experience is a plus! How could it not be?? You already know how to fly. You just need to break your old flying habits and learn the military way. I fly for a part 91 corporation. When I go to the airlines I will have to break all of my habits they dont like and learn their way or I'm history.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
Here is what the essence of being a military aviator is all about, and I'll paraphrase it here; A very distraught young P-51 pilot called his lead to say that he had a massive formation of Luftwafee fighters in sight. His grizzled commander replied, "Rejoice Laddie thats what we're here for" To me this is what flying in the military is all about. It may sound old-fashioned, it might even be corny, HOWEVER, the words Duty, Honor, Country should be the most important words that anyone in the military knows. Moreover, it is of paramount importance to those that fly in the military.
Personally, if I knew the primary motivating factor for why they are flying in the military was to "enrich" their resume for a post-military flying career. Well, I wouldn't cross the street to piss on him if he were on fire. This might sound VERY inflammatory, but the main reason for the military's existence is simple...To kill people before they kill you or your comrades in arms while completing your objective.
I sugges to anyone that reads this that looks at the military as a means to an end that they go elsewhere. I have NO PROBLEM with someone that flies in the military and moves on to so-called, "bigger and better" things, but a young man or woman with aforementioned motivation to be a military aviator will not have what it takes to be a leader of other warriors. I've flown with these types and just about everyone of them was about .99 cents short of a dollar when it came to looking out for the troops, in particular his enlisted crew and was often in the bottom 1/3 of pilots in the squadron.
As a further example, I know an AF reserve (home-grown) KC-10 pilot that ONLY wanted to be an AF pilot, so she could land a cushy job with UAL or AA someday. Well, thats just great, but when I said, wouldn't you rather fly F-16s given the choice? Her reply was, No...It's not a comfortable way to fly!!!Can you believe that attitude from a USAF officer? What the hell happened to the axiom, "Every Man(woman, to be PC) a Tiger".
Well, I've had my tirade...Nothing personal against the original posting, good luck and FLY NAVY if you must fly military. The best always have!

Regards,

ex-Navy rotorhead

 

[navhnt]

This is pretty silly but just to clarify what I said... Civilian flight time/ratings is most definitely a plus when you are in training. You will obviously be ahead of the average person off the street. However, to the best of my knowledge, there is no place on your application to the military that says "please enter your civilian flight time and ratings." I was just trying to say that you will not get some sort of preferential treatment in the application process because of your civilain experience. Not trying to discourage anybody, just stating the facts.

NAVHNT

 

[JimNtexas]

This is pretty silly but just to clarify what I said... Civilian flight time/ratings is most definitely a plus when you are in training. You will obviously be ahead of the average person off the street. However, to the best of my knowledge, there is no place on your application to the military that says "please enter your civilian flight time and ratings." ...NAVHNT

The air force wants to know all about your prior flying. A few years ago, when the T3 program folded they tried just sending people off the street to UPT, and it was a disaster.

Now the Air Force will buy your private license if you don't already have one prior to UPT, and will pay you to get a BFR if you are not current.

Even mere navigator students are being sent off to get their PPL before nav school!

The USAF puts a lot of stock in prior flying.

Jim

 

[navhnt]

This is a really big can of worms but here goes... The military training system can teach anybody to fly. The vast majority of people who wash out are people who can't take the constant pressure of the system, we all know that. Very few people lack the physical skills to actually fly. The whole emphasis on previous flight time comes from the "it's not my fault" mentality that dominates our society. In order to cut down on normal attrition in the training process, the military looked at exposing people to the flight experience before they began training, which explains JimNtexas' post. I completely disagree with your contention that prior time is the only correlation to success in UPT. Most of the pilots I know had little to no civilian experience and we are doing just fine. Again, civilian flight experience is a big plus (I wish I had some when I got started) It is NOT a requirement.

I have been out of the application process for quite awhile so hopefully others can chime in but I still think that at least for the Navy, there is no block on the application that asks for civilian experience. There are no "points" for flight time and ratings. While it is most definitely a plus, I really don't think it factors into the application process.

NAVHNT

 

[Flaco]

Flight hours on application

Flight hours do count on certain parts of the application.

For AF applicants, flight hours are used in conjuntion with AFOQT "pilot" section scores and the results of the BAT test to determine an applicant's PCSM score.

In my Guard interview, my flight experience definately helped me get the job. My experience as a CFI was also discussed quite a bit. I doubt the pilots on the board used my flight experience as an indicator of my ability to fly an F-16, but I think it did help to show a certain level of commitment.

I think that NAVHNT is probably right about flight time previous to UPT not making a difference in the long run. I know that's why they call the T-38 "The Great Equalizer". I haven't been to UPT yet (still waiting), but I would venture to bet that my previous flight experience won't do me a bit of good after a few months there.

 

[michael707767]

Re: Flight hours on application

I think that NAVHNT is probably right about flight time previous to UPT not making a difference in the long run. I know that's why they call the T-38 "The Great Equalizer". I haven't been to UPT yet (still waiting), but I would venture to bet that my previous flight experience won't do me a bit of good after a few months there.

As a former IP, I can tell you, past flight time made very little difference, and in some cases, worked against you. Without fail, the guys who did best in UPT were the ones who wanted it the most, and worked their tails off, no matter what their background was. Also, the T-38 was the great equalizer, IMHO. Its too bad not every student gets to fly it these days.

 

[p3jacobs]

As a former IP, I can tell you, past flight time made very little difference, and in some cases, worked against you

The air force wants to know all about your prior flying. A few years ago, when the T3 program folded they tried just sending people off the street to UPT, and it was a disaster

Both correct...and the big stink now is that no AF candidate starts without at least 40 hours and a private...Joint training has implemented Navy/Marine Corps, with no previous time, into the same pipeline at AF bases, and they have seen increased attrition because of it.

The AF recognizes that previous flying time will help initially, but as previously stated...it usually merges at some point, and the high time guys become a number like the rest and ability will take over. My best students have all had prior time...and humility to go with it.

Come on in and blow sh!t up. Gas is much cheaper on the inside. (Thanx taxpayers)

 

[airludy]

I dont know if I believe the "prior flight experience wont help one bit in the application process". That simply cant be true.

 

[BMD]

prior time

One way that prior time can work against you in Navy Primary training is the Navy's accelerated syllabus. It used to be, if you entered the Navy with XXX civilian hours (not sure of the exact number), each of your first several events will cover 2 flights worth of information. That put some guys at a disadvantage from a grading standpoint (grades determine what you select: jets vs. props vs. helos). I'm not sure if this system is still in place. The navy is now paying for students to get their private before starting navy ground school here in P'cola.

 

[shootr]

Navy pre-program

The Navy is not exactly paying for their private...25 hours from a CFI in light civils, whether they solo or not.

shootr

 

[Clownpilot]

Re: Re: Flight hours on application

That just simply isn't true. If that were true then airlines would hire people who have never flown before so they wouldn't have any bad habits to unlearn. There is a reason why airlines want experienced pilots.

Remember the first time you hit a golf ball or drove a car? Well, you made lots of mistakes and you probably weren't all that good at it. Now you are because your experience allows you to anticipate what is going to happen so you are prepared for it when it does. To say that isn't important in flight training is ludicrous.

As a former IP, I can tell you, past flight time made very little difference, and in some cases, worked against you. Without fail, the guys who did best in UPT were the ones who wanted it the most, and worked their tails off, no matter what their background was. Also, the T-38 was the great equalizer, IMHO. Its too bad not every student gets to fly it these days.

 

[Michael Knight]

Well, I agree with Michael. Prior flight time usually makes LITTLE difference in flight school. The prior flight time I'm talking about is usually 25 to 50 hours, which is not much. Any advantage by these students is only realized during the first few flights, if at all.

Those coming to flight school with significant experience are often a different story. I have seen some students with commercial licenses and an instrument card, a few even with 1000+ hours. These students usually did not have to work as hard (especially on instruments) and did well but still didn't end up with the top grades (nor the bottom). If I had to come up with a top 5 list of students I have seen (based on performance), only 1 of them had any prior flight time. It really comes down to natural ability and desire.