Is ATC Allowed To.. ?

[dapilot]

Is ATC allowed to tell pilots when to turn off the runway while we are touching down (especially in the flare) ? I don't think they are allowed to but repeatedely, I have heard tower (cough Ta cough mpa cough) tell me to turn off at this intersection or that intersection while still rolling out at a high speed! I use my judgement and turn off at first "available" intersection (where no aircraft are head to head with me, etc) when taxi speed is reached as safety, brakes, blown tires and passenger comfort are all my concern being a 121 pilot, NOT them trying to get me off the runway because the aircraft following me is too close or they want to try to get a departure out.

You know the funny thing is one time I was coming in to land and touched down and was told to turn off at an intersection PAST the one I was about to turn off at even though they wanted to get me off the runway ASAP because the guy behind me was 2 miles entrail. Well after they instructed me to take that intersection, I kicked the nose back left, stayed on the runway and kept whatever momentum I had to the intersection instructed to (which was like 50 feet farther), and then turned off at it. As soon as I got switched to ground, they told me to write down a number to call them at the tower. Both my first officer and I were like "WTF!" - once getting to the gate, I called them, the ATC supervisor asked why I was taxi'ing off the runway at such a slow speed. I told them the situation - that I was already in the process of turning off an "earlier" intersection and then the controller came on and wanted me to go to the next intersection, I kicked the nose back left onto the runway at the speed I was at and I complied with the tower controllers instructions! The supervisor understood and thanked me for calling him and nothing came of it.

This just goes to show that even when trying to help them out by doing what they instructed, you can still get a "please call this number"

ATC, stop telling us when to turn off on the runway - its our runway - the entire length if we want it. If you want us to "expedite off the runway," tell us on the approach to the runway, don't tell us while we are in the flare to get off at ABCDE intersection!

 

[atl pilot]

My technique is to tell you that I would apprecaite minimum time on the runway, while you are still on appraoch. However, there are some superviors that feel that this new and improved mandate to give y'all detailed taxi routes requires that we tell you where to exit the runway as part of that new requirement.....and this happens on rollout....when you appear to be a taxi speed. (The word "appears" is itialicized b/c what you think is a reasonable and safe speed may not be what someone from a mile away and 13 floors up percieves as the same).
This is one of those areas where having controllers ride on fams in the the jumpseats would benefit the pilots. Unfortunately, that ability was taken away from us after 9/11. This was a terrific opportunity for you pilots to share items (exactly like this) with your non-flying ATC counterparts. It gave the controllers an opportunity to see how busy you are on rollout, go around, etc. We lost a valuable training tool with the loss of the fam program.

 

[dapilot]

However, there are some superviors that feel that this new and improved mandate to give y'all detailed taxi routes requires that we tell you where to exit the runway as part of that new requirement.....and this happens on rollout....when you appear to be a taxi speed.

What are you talking about? I never heard of a new "mandate" of any kind allowing controllers to tell pilots "what taxiway" to turn off at? Thats ridiculous and unsafe in my opinion. You can call our Chief Pilot and tell him yourself why we blew 2 tires trying to make a taxiway you assigned us. Sorry sir, won't happen...at least not in the aircraft I'm PIC in.

 

[say again]

I get off when it's safe to, simple as that. I do expedite when needed/asked, as to not screw the crew behind me.

 

[Choppy]

Just don't answer them. Focus on what is at hand. We can work out the taxi instructions when the workload is lower.

 

[great cornholio]

What are you talking about? I never heard of a new "mandate" of any kind allowing controllers to tell pilots "what taxiway" to turn off at? Thats ridiculous and unsafe in my opinion. You can call our Chief Pilot and tell him yourself why we blew 2 tires trying to make a taxiway you assigned us. Sorry sir, won't happen...at least not in the aircraft I'm PIC in.

The one that says that ATC must give detailed taxi instructions to all A/C now. Started about a month or so ago and there was a thread on it. They will no longer say "taxi to runway 16" They have to say "taxi to runway 16 via alpha" ..and it appears the same is true for taxing to the ramp/gate. Must say "taxi to the gate via Fox" I could see where some guys would think that they have to tell you which taxi way to make in order to comply with that, but that seems far fetched to me. Either way its really not a big deal if you think you're going to fast to make a turn off then tell them unable if you have time if not then just pass it up and make the first one you think you safely can...and if you get asked questions just tell them you were going too fast to make the one they asked you to.

 

[dapilot]

The one that says that ATC must give detailed taxi instructions to all A/C now. Started about a month or so ago and there was a thread on it. They will no longer say "taxi to runway 16" They have to say "taxi to runway 16 via alpha" ..and it appears the same is true for taxing to the ramp/gate.

The "mandate" I was talking about was taxi instructions from the "runway" via an intersection to a taxiway. Thats absurd and I'm sure there is not one that exists.

 

[atl pilot]

The Great Corn. is correct. However, you are still PIC. Fly your airplane first.

 

[atl pilot]

Maybe I should qualify this further: The FARs say that if you are unable to comply with a clearance, you will let ATC know ASAP. Just do that. Be professional, but the safe operation of your aircraft is your # 1 priority.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

No good deed goes unpunished.

That call could have ended up a little differently depending on how your actions were interpreted and by whom. I don't doubt you could've got hit with something like careless/reckless as your actions indicated you were about to turn off and then turned back on with traffic on short final. They'll say you have final authority and should have known better. Blah Blah Blah.

Other than LAHSO which you sort of agree to, you otherwise own the runway and I would take whatever exit suits the speed best.

 

[Mach 80]

A clearance is not really a clearance till it is responded to and acknowledged or responded to. Usually if the reversers are still deployed, I don't answer because I can never be sure with all the reverser noise that I heard him correctly anyway. If he has to make two calls - oh well, he has to make two calls.

 

[Nevets]

Maybe I should qualify this further: The FARs say that if you are unable to comply with a clearance, you will let ATC know ASAP. Just do that. Be professional, but the safe operation of your aircraft is your # 1 priority.

A clearance is not really a clearance till it is responded to and acknowledged or responded to.

Some controller's egos don't allow them to understand those facts. Just read my thread on Drift Down Routes for one example.
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=109110

 

[HooverPilot]

In the theme of "Is ATC Allowed To"

Is ATC allowed to tell pilots to squawk standby when working the VFR pattern at a field? I encounter this routinely, but squawk 1200 vice stby.

If I go stby, I lose TCAS and a valuable tool for situational awareness.

 

[atl pilot]

Yes. An example I gave recenetly on go arounds from a visual apch discussed exactly this. The Tower you are working with may not own the overlying airspace. In this case, they will have a LOA (letter of agreement) with some overlying radar control facility (either a center or approach control). Most of these LOAs are very similiar. If they don't want to send you back out for resequencing with that other facility, and keep you closer in the VFR pattern (which really saves you fuel and time), they fequently will have you squawk stanby and remain in their pattern. This mitigates the need for extraneous coordination with the overlying controlling facility. Would you rather reset your xponder to 1200, or simply sqwak standby (I think the latter is simpler for you and less distraction)? The other option is having to go back out and fly possibly another 10 - 15 miles minimum for resequencing. This technique has been utilized at every FAA and contract VFR ATC Tower I've worked at over the past 22 years. Its not uncommon, is fully legal, and is allowed.

Most GA airplanes do not have TCAS or TCAD (although there are more these days and even a year ago). If the loss of your TCAS function is your concern, tell the copntroller and ask if you may squawk VFR instread of standby. I'd say okay if asked. I merely use the standby vs 1200 b/c its easier for you to do. Remember most controllers do not fly and do not understand whats going on in the airplane. If you need something, then ask for it, but let the controller know why, if its something like this. If you just ask to squawkk 1200, I will proabably say no, without the intel you just provided. I do not know of anyone I work with that would deny your request of this, given the knowledge you've just shared.

 

[HooverPilot]

Thanks ATL for the good discussion. My situation is a bit different than normal, this happens when I'm flying Field Carrier Landing Practice flights in a Navy aircraft at a remote field. It does underly neighboring airspace. The TCAS is too valuable of a tool for tracking the (up to 5) other aircraft in the pattern with me. As a squadron, we have decided that we are not going to squawk stby and give it up, and the controllers don't pursue it after we tell them we will be squawking 1200. But they always ask, everytime.

 

[atl pilot]

Is the remote field a military tower or civie?

 

[HooverPilot]

I'm talking about NALF Fentress next to NAS Oceana. Oceana tower "controls" the field, but its untowered, uncontrolled military.

 

[atl pilot]

Since the ATC facility you are referring to is military, why not have your Commander call the Tower Chief and explain your premise. They may be able to make some internal training and SOP additions to enhance safety and your regular procedures. I would be willing to bet they (the ATC facility) just don't realize the wherfores and whatbins of what y'all need!

 

[HooverPilot]

Gotcha, I appreciate the responses! I'll see how it goes tomorrow.

 

[J3guy]

Yes. An example I gave recenetly on go arounds from a visual apch discussed exactly this. The Tower you are working with may not own the overlying airspace. In this case, they will have a LOA (letter of agreement) with some overlying radar control facility (either a center or approach control). Most of these LOAs are very similiar. If they don't want to send you back out for resequencing with that other facility, and keep you closer in the VFR pattern (which really saves you fuel and time), they fequently will have you squawk stanby and remain in their pattern. This mitigates the need for extraneous coordination with the overlying controlling facility. Would you rather reset your xponder to 1200, or simply sqwak standby (I think the latter is simpler for you and less distraction)? The other option is having to go back out and fly possibly another 10 - 15 miles minimum for resequencing. This technique has been utilized at every FAA and contract VFR ATC Tower I've worked at over the past 22 years. Its not uncommon, is fully legal, and is allowed.

Most GA airplanes do not have TCAS or TCAD (although there are more these days and even a year ago). If the loss of your TCAS function is your concern, tell the copntroller and ask if you may squawk VFR instread of standby. I'd say okay if asked. I merely use the standby vs 1200 b/c its easier for you to do. Remember most controllers do not fly and do not understand whats going on in the airplane. If you need something, then ask for it, but let the controller know why, if its something like this. If you just ask to squawkk 1200, I will proabably say no, without the intel you just provided. I do not know of anyone I work with that would deny your request of this, given the knowledge you've just shared.

I would rather squawk 1200 and keep the tcas ability. Alot of GA aircraft have this ability. Also a lot of GA aircraft have transponders with a VFR button. Push it once and your squawking 1200, that simple. Quite often flying into towered airports (class D) I have had some very close calls. Every bit helps.