Interviews: Common Courtesy by Companys?

[CorpFlyBoy67]

Not really sure they are being rude, probably just busy.

You can do a couple of things. Either call until you get the person on the phone (do not leave messages and block your phone with *67 before you dial the number) or you can shoot this person an email. Just tell them you are calling (if you get them on the phone) or emailing them to check on the status of the interview.

There is definately a fine line as an applicant between "interested" and "pain in the rear". I had the same thing happen to me in a job search once, and the lady doing the hiring was just a flake. I was persistent enough without being a pain. I think I even emailed her and said that I realized she was very busy, but that I wanted to check on the status of my interview. I ended up getting the job.

The hiring people will not tell you what you did wrong cause they can be opened up to a lawsuit.

Hope that helps...

 

[b757driver]

This is not news at all and has been going on for quite some time. While I agree with both posters, it is all relative - some people get feedback and responses fairly quickly and others are certainly jerked around.

CorpFlyBoy67 says keep calling/emailing. Fine, but what if you have been doing precisely that and still get no response? What is conidered enough? Why should you have to play this silly "game"? Why not just come clean?

The fact that they are "busy" is no excuse for lack of common courtesy. After all, that is what they expect from us. Yes, times are hard and competition for the few jobs are phenomenal but they are the ones that solicited the resumes/applications and sometimes, application fees. The least they can do, is respond - even if it is in the negative. It costs nothing to be courteous and creates a good impression. Remember an interview is a TWO way street. You, too, are sizing up the company to see whether the fit is right for you .

I once took a fairly passive, but quietly persistent stance with one company, continued to network and kept them informed about my interest after receiving countless third party advertising to go work for this company. I even did some training with their sister company and honored their request for no phone calls. This went on for 6 months. Then I decided to write a polite but assertive letter requesting an interview or at least a response of some kind on my application status. That letter was carefully scripted and based on a template used by one of the top recruitment consultancies in the nation and was specifically designed to get a response without "being a pain in the butt". The result? I was told not to bother them and the reply was from the company president himself! I was speechless and today, this company has a hard time recruiting people. I wonder why. Maybe I caught him on a bad day, I don't know, but I have to agree with outermarket, some employers seem to revel in their power to control the recruiting process.

I have worked overseas several times and can tell you it is VERY different in most other countries. It is black and white. If a company is recruiting and you meet the requirements, you will invariably be called. If you have had an interview, they will eventually get back to you and they are not afraid of litigation (in fact, that does not even enter into it). They will happily talk to you on the phone (they are just as busy) and answer any questions you may have, though they are unlikely to tell you the reasons why you did not make the cut. However, the whole process is a pleasant experience which is more than can be said for here right now.

Oh well, only in America........
__________________________________________________
It's Nice To Be Important But It's More Important To Be Nice!

 

[Publishers]

Hiring

I understand the frustration that comes from situations like this.

It is an oversimplification to think that the companies are not empathetic or cold. From your perspective, they are.

Let's just assume that for the moment I have a captains job opening and I advertise and finally select 4 to interview. Three do really well and I ahve my favorite but the others who are part of the process like someone else.

I treated you well because I liked you and wanted you to have the job. They picked someone else after it got down to their two best choices.

Am I going to call you right away. Probably not. I want to see if the other guy shows up and passes d&a and all the other tests. If he does not, then I will go to number two, and then maybe even number 3.

In none of these senario's am I calling you one way or the other.

It would be nice, but they are not obligated to do so and you should not expect it. Besides, anything less than you are hired is not going to make you happy.

 

[b757driver]

Can't We Just All Get Along?

They may be busy and of course, they have a thankless task in choosing candidates and rejecting others - BUT that is still no excuse for plain rudeness and inconsideration. Especially if you were told outright that they would contact you.

It is NOT a question of obligation, it is plain courtesy, pure and simply. This is exactly what distinguishes a great company from a mediocre one. If this is the way they treat prospective job candidates, then consider how they might treat their actual employees.

As I said before, it does not cost ANYTHING to be courteous and polite. I accept that we live in a far from ideal world, and you cannot expect all people to have high standards or think like you. The fact remains, if I am told they will get back to me then I DO expect them to do just that. Why else say it? Call me old fashioned, but I was brought up to respect people and to be courteous - even if you are having a "bad" day. Are these not the very same personal attributes we are told are essential for a successful interview? You say, don't expect feedback yet they expect you to be whiter than white. Besides, any career counselor will tell you that it is imperative for a candidate to be persistent and follow up - nobody addresses how you should follow up when it appears you are being ignored and it is very soul destroying - ask someone who has been through it for a while.

Outside of aviation and outside of the USA, it's a different ball game. Why do you think that is? My perspective is that aviation is already the pits in this country and this "us and them" attitude is certainly not going to help. I can begin to see why America, in general, is slowly being alienated.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

really the best advice would be to not take it personal. Its just business.

Keep looking, dont let some rude 9-5 retard give you a bad attitude!!

ITS NOT different outside of aviation either. I know IT guys who have sent out hundreds of resumes, made hundreds of calls and get the dame deal...

and as far as it being an "American" thing....well....pack up and look for a job overseas there brother!

 

[Indigo]

Re: Can't We Just All Get Along?

If this is the way they treat prospective job candidates, then consider how they might treat their actual employees.

Exactly. So if you feel that the company culture is like this, perhaps it's a job you're better off without. I would treat an interview as not only them evaluating you, but you evaluating them.

I know this is a hard thing to do if you really need a job, but it's just my 2 cents.

Back to lurking.

 

[CorpFlyBoy67]

I agree with Gulfstream on this one. It is NOT different outside of aviation.

I am not sure who you are applying with, B757 or Outermarket, but within a typical company, they are NOT just hiring pilots. Most do not have just hiring as their job description either. Some do other duties, like benefits, employee evals, pay raises, etc. Hiring might be a small part of their duties.

Basically you are wanting to change something that cannot be changed. The last thing anyone wants to do is piss off an HR person. They, like pilots, are part of organizations and they talk. Just like we do on here.

B757 - I have noticed from your other posts that you are very frustrated with the aviation industry. I am assuming you are furloughed. Unfortunately, it seems from what I have heard, that a lot of airlines are shying away from hiring furloughed pilots because they have gotten burned. That goes for corporate operators too. They do not want to put the money into someone they fear is going to leave.

So, what else can you do outside of aviation? Do you have a degree to fall back on? What about any flight instructing? Put together your own deal, rent an airplane, teach, show some currency in aircraft. A lot of these jobs out there want at least 100 hours current. So, what can you do to get those hours?

No meaning to bag on you, but what can you do to change your situation. Go back to the people at the unemployment office and get trained in something else not aviation related. You may have to do something like that, and I would do it before your unemployment runs out completely.

 

[rettofly]

Re: Can't We Just All Get Along?

They may be busy and of course, they have a thankless task in choosing candidates and rejecting others - BUT that is still no excuse for plain rudeness and inconsideration. Especially if you were told outright that they would contact you.

It is NOT a question of obligation, it is plain courtesy, pure and simply.

Outside of aviation and outside of the USA, it's a different ball game.

I guess I'm old fashioned too. Since the aviation world isn't showing me any response, I've started to put apps in outside of aviation. Guess what? The receipt for the app includes the following statement: "This is the only acknowledgement you will receive UNLESS you are selected for an interview."

I made a lot of hiring decisions in my former life (which I gladly left to fly full-time). Communication with applicants was a given, good, bad, or indifferent.

I've always believed that bad news doesn't improve with age. I'm in perpetual outrage over the lack of courtesy in business today.

 

[Publishers]

harder

I think that it is much harder with people who are selected to interview. They think they will be the one and fail to realize that there may be a number of good candidates.

As I said in my earlier post, regardless whether youheard ffrom them or not, if you did not get the job, not much else matters.

It is really hard not to take personal rejection personally. That is what it is. Sometimes companies take the position that you really are not being rejected, you are just not hired.

Too, sometimes the applicant only hears what he wants to.

 

[b757driver]

Bring it on!

I would love to be able to handle a tough interview and get turned down - if I was invited. It's about opportunities. If you don't get 'em, you can hardly sell your talents. It is FAR harder trying to get a job when you don't already have one. It's the total lack of response PRIOR to interviews I'm talking about. I can handle the Dear John letters/calls just fine as can most people.

If you know where you stand, you can move on. It's the not knowing. How can you possibly improve your chances or learn from your experiences if you don't know anyof the reasons behind it? I have had many people outside of aviation come up to me and say "well, did you follow up?", "did they respond?" and then give a laundry list of what you ought to do that runs completely contrary to what the airline recruiters want you to do (no calls, no walk-ins, no faxes etc). They, too, cannot comprehend it for this length of time.

So my question is, who do you believe and what do you believe? I have heard so many conflicting stories that I could easily write a book on it! I am only posting to try and get some insight and learn something but how can you do that if there is a golden wall of silence? It would be almost unimaginable to be able to talk to a HR person without feeling guilty that I am taking up valuable time, that I have to be on the defensive or apologise that I have not flown 300 hours in the last year because my company went bust. When I was current and got an additional type rating, one would think that would certainly open some doors, again, nothing. After a year of doing nothing but try it's hard to say "don't take it personally, it's business". If that's the case, then I will happily continue drawing UI benefit - but it is most certainly not through MY lack of trying. I've done my part to the best of my abilities and, as you say, I cannot change the so-called "rules of engagement". Hopefully then, I won't be accused of being a sponger by drawing unemployment. I paid my taxes too and continue to do so.

I am not furloughed, I'm laid off (again) and anyone that has experienced that knows what I'm talking about. Yes, I am a little frustrated, who wouldn't be? But to suggest that that is why I am not hitting is way off track. If I have not been called for an interview, how would they know what my attitude is or how it changes. All they know is what they see on my cover letter and resume. I know how to behave professionally because I am a professional and have been in this business for some time. I am not a wannabe looking for their first, entry-level job (although I would even consider that!). I suspect I might know where the "problem" may lie but there is absolutely nothing I can do about unofficial hiring practices or policies that run contradictory to federal and state laws. As most of you know, the employment laws are there primarily to protect the employer, not the job candidate or employee. Of course, I cannot prove anything but that in itself does not mean that there is no discrimination going on. I could be wrong but again, how would I know that?

The way things are developing, it looks like I will have to ship out to foreign shores (been there, done that in last recession AND was very successful at it) and fly the exact same aircraft I used to fly here and make the same personal sacrifices as last time. Maybe I need to add it to Lou Dobb's "Exporting America" program!

I think this is a great site for the sharing of information and to better understand the hiring process. I am all for that. If I was on the other side of the fence, I would do whatever I could to help out a fellow aviator going through some bad times because it could easily be me one day. All I am seeking is equal
opportunities. Sadly, that has not been my experience so far.

 

[New2Flying]

Let's Find Out The Answer

I called my friend Kathy, the resume writer. I told her about the thread on here and wanted to find out if she had any insight. We lucked out on the timing of this thread.

Kathy is a member of a resume writers group and she said that they are having a meeting with Human Resource people on February 28th. She told me they do this every year to help the resume writers make sure they are doing the right things for their customers.

She said that there are usually about 50 HR people that attend this meeting every year from every kind of company and government hiring department. She promised me that she would have an answer to this question after the meeting.

Does anyone else have any questions they would like her to ask? Apparently she runs this HR meeting, so she gets to decide what questions are asked.

She also asked if it would be helpful if she were to join flight info and participate in the discussions. Does anyone want to see her do that? She said she didn't want to look like she was trying to "advertise" by participating. She just wants to help.

I think it would be valuable if she did join, since she has a good background in hiring. If anyone thinks it would be bad, just tell me and I will just continue to ask her questions. (honestly, I don't want to be the middleman anyone since I might not forward the whole answer and I'm gone on the road a lot.)

Any thoughts?

 

[b757driver]

Ditto that. Sounds like a great idea, the best I've heard in a long time and kudos to you for even suggesting it. Maybe together we can now achieve something.

Like outermarket, I cannot put a finger on it either. I'm in a similar position but on the flying side, can't seem to crack the silence barrier and NEVER before had such a great problem. All my family and friends are equallly amazed and keep telling me "it's the company's loss" or "hang in there, something will show up". Well, I've been literally hanging for over a year now. If one is supposed to learn from experiences (as the experts are inclined to tell us), then let's get it out in the open once and for all. I'm not trying tochnage the system, just trying to make it more user-friendly.

I notice that outermarket mentioned his age - 46. Does anyone think age might have anything to do with it? Yeah, sure they are not supposed to discriminate and it says so on all the apps. It would be the easiset thing to do behind closed doors and you would have no way to prove it. The same may go if you speak with a "funny" accent. I don't know for sure but it is certainly food for thought. After all, I am hearing that some guys are being discriminated against because they have been furloughed (read bad-mouthing their companies etc). Maybe, maybe not. If I were a recruiter, I would want to find out myself, not rely on someone else's opinion or hearsay. I would have an OPEN mind and perhaps give preference to those furloughed pilots who had no say in their fate. The same goes for the laid off. The industry dictates that this is what companies do when times are bad, so these people should be the FIRST to get a helping hand, not the last! Just a few ideas/observations.

 

[b757driver]

From the Horse's Mouth

I have just come across the following job description for a recruiter with a Part 121 carrier:

"....seeks out new methods to recruit diversity, networks with minority organizations to promote XYZ's employment opportunities. Discusses XYZ's career opportunities with potential candidates and ensures all candidates are responded to in a timely manner"

Fact or fiction?

 

[Publishers]

Perspective

In the last few months, I ahve run job posts for both flight and non flight part 135 corporate flying.

Furthermore, I used to work with pilot and hr recruiters nationwide, particularly airlines and fractionals.

First, when I put an ad on one of the boards, I try to be very specific as to who we want and what we want them to do.

Language like MUST have a Lear 55 Type rating, 1000pic, be current in aircraft, have flown 135.........

That is pretty specific. In response what do I get.


Literally hundreds of resumes from people who do not come close to meeting this base requirement. The fact is that I also received 50 or so who did meet the requirement. Of the 50, about 35 were eliminated fairly quickly. Physical location, on furlough, also had type ratings for bigger aircraft, etc eliminated them.

That still leave 15 to start calling, maybe 5 or 6 to interview.
Of the last 5 or 6 , all were well qualified and acceptable.

Now the question is -- why did I not send or call the other hundreds and tell them they were not going on. Well unfortunately the invention of email and job services means that it is twice as easy to send me your resume. If you actually had to take the time to hand type a new letter every time, perhaps an employer would not have to be bombarded with resumes.

The more vague we are, even more come. Imagine the non flight jobs were qualifications are more nebulous.

Now if I invite you in for an interview, I will take your phone call and say no you are no longer being considered. I do not have time if you do not call me to worry about sending the qualified group some written message. As I said earlier, I may have liked one candidate and treated him or her especially well. Still, when the hiring meeting was held, others did not like that person and were strong about my second choice.

After 911, Airtran and Netjets received over 1000 resumes a week.

Lastly, you need to understand that no matter what the real reason you did not get the job, that is not what they are going to tell you.

 

[Publishers]

personal

I know how personal it was for you, however, it is not that personal for the company and that is the rub. Something obviously happened, what I do not know.

 

[bobbysamd]

Post-interview courtesy, or lack thereof, and age discrimination

They may be busy and of course, they have a thankless task in choosing candidates and rejecting others - BUT that is still no excuse for plain rudeness and inconsideration. Especially if you were told outright that they would contact you.

It is NOT a question of obligation, it is plain courtesy, pure and simply. This is exactly what distinguishes a great company from a mediocre one. If this is the way they treat prospective job candidates, then consider how they might treat their actual employees.

Originally posted by outermarket
Of course at the interview they could see me and my salt and pepper hair with 25 years of professional experience on paper. I could tell they were just going through the motions....iwhat was obvious to me at the end of that interview was that these guys never showed me the ops center, or introduced me to anyone, they took me back to the airport 5 hours before the return flight home, and it was their flight arrangments, they knew right then I was not going to get the job. Also, they never asked the first dispatch related question, none! All personal type Q's.

So what was this if not due to my age . . . .

* * * *

Getting an aviation job as a pilot, dispatcher or any other licensed position is a labor of love and emotion, it is what we are made of, this is not a job at McDonalds....it hurts to get rejected, especially over and over again, and you noone can tell you why. Your friends and professional associates cant see why your not getting hired, you have done all the write things, resume is perfect, hair combed....and you get the bathroom door slammed in your face by the girl you truly love!

This is the best analogy I could come up with, but do you see how personal this can get for people?

What excellent comments!! I second b757 driver and Outermarket 100%.

My experience is the interview process frequently provides valuable insight into how the company runs and how employees are treated. I will provide a non-aviation example.

I had applied to a law firm not long after I graduated from paralegal school. The office manager called me. I kept trying to return her calls but couldn't reach her. I even called at specific times. I finally reached her on a Friday and she asked me to come in for an interview. I said, of course, how about next week. She said "no, how about this afternoon?" I wasn't really prepared, but I also wasn't working, so I came in. I met with her and liked her immediately, which helped, but the process that day was not very organized at all. It almost was as if I arrived unexpectedly. I met with two partners, one of whom I had met before during school. I was later called back for a second interview with the principal shareholder. This woman put me on the hotseat with what I thought were inane and illegal questions about if I lived alone, and something about age, etc, ad nauseum. I left the place angry at the illegal questions and their interview process in general. Several days later, the office manager called me and said I was not hired. I told her I did not appreciate the illegal questions from the boss. She agreed with me and said she had cautioned her before not to ask such personal questions. Well, as it turned out, I was hired later, and the lawfirm was just as disorganized and wierd as my interview process, and was a revolving door!!

Having provided that example, my best aviation example is my Comair Aviation Academy interview. I spent megabucks to fly two-thousand miles from Arizona to Sanford for what turned out to be a lousy fifteen minutes with the Chief Flight Instructor and a one-hour flight. It was done in a morning. I could tell after this "interview" I wouldn't be hired, but after traveling that distance and spending that kind of money I thought I would rate a rejection letter. It never came - and the stories about the poor treatment suffered by CAA students and instructors abound.

There is absolutely, positively no excuse not to inform an applicant by either phone or letter whether he/she has been hired or rejected. You don't let people hang. To do so is outright rude, not to mention unprofessional and inconsiderate. Being busy is no justification but simply a disgusting cop-out for lack of courtesy and consideration.

Finally, I hear Outermarket's age discrimination suspicions five-by. I might be the only one around here who hears them. He titles his post, "Age Discrimination is alive and well." D@mn right it is! And I had people on another discussion try to convince me otherwise. Read my posts on that subject. Sorry to hear, for his sake, that someone besides me has been there and done that, though it gives my complaints credence as me not being the only one to suffer from age discrimination - which is something I knew anyway. He probably was brought in to check off an ADEA square. I'd bet I was during at least a couple of my interviews years ago.

 

[bobbysamd]

Re: Let's Find Out The Answer (or at least receive informed feedback)

[Kathy]also asked if it would be helpful if she were to join flight info and participate in the discussions. Does anyone want to see her do that? She said she didn't want to look like she was trying to "advertise" by participating. She just wants to help.

I would love to see Kathy participate. I'd love to read her thoughts about the hiring process, how to surmount the institutional hurdles one faces to be hired in aviation, and receive some informed feedback.

 

[rettofly]

Re: Perspective

First, when I put an ad on one of the boards, I try to be very specific as to who we want and what we want them to do.

Language like MUST have a Lear 55 Type rating, 1000pic, be current in aircraft, have flown 135.........That is pretty specific. Now the question is -- why did I not send or call the other hundreds and tell them they were not going on. Well unfortunately the invention of email and job services means that it is twice as easy to send me your resume. If you actually had to take the time to hand type a new letter every time, perhaps an employer would not have to be bombarded with resumes.

In every case in which I was able to discern a snail mail address or FAX number, I've taken the trouble to send a cover letter and resume' to follow up the e-mail. I've made innumerable phone calls to unanswered voice mailboxes. I've been very careful to limit my submissions to the postings for which I was realistically qualified. I'm not a 121 furloughee. I've made it clear in my cover letters that I'm willing to relocate.
If e-mail makes it so easy for a bunch of wannabees to apply, it also makes it easy for the screeners (HR or Operations types) to send a "have a nice life" message. So.... why do I stand before the wall of silence?

"Finally, I hear Outermarket's age discrimination suspicions five-by. I might be the only one around here who hears them."

No, you're not!

 

[English]

Kathy is a wealth of information. I'd just hate to see her ripped to shreds by some of the flamers on this board, just for trying to help. She's already been wrongly accused of making up fake screennames (including mine!) in order to put her name out there.

So, I'll do it for her instead....

Kathy Sweeney, Certified Professional Resume Writer (and all-around nice gal) www.awriteresume.com

 

[bobbysamd]

Hiring discourtesy

If e-mail makes it so easy for a bunch of wannabees to apply, it also makes it easy for the screeners (HR or Operations types) to send a "have a nice life" message. So.... why do I stand before the wall of silence?

Internet and high-tech has not improved courtesy and consideration of others. They still just blow people off because they don't want to deal with applicant e-mails. They undoubtedly see it as spam and move it to the electronic round file - just as they pitched resumes into the round file years ago.