Interview Question come to life

[Rip Vanwinkle]

Coming out of CPS the other night a Waterski was on approach at STL. Asked for an ambulance to meet them off the runway. RVR was something like 1800 and 100 sky obscured, and I think I heard some guys missing. Of course I hope everything worked out well, but more importantly, did the Captain use proper CRM and consult every possible person in the universe before deciding on whether or not to divert? Discuss!

 

[B1900FO]

If I'm not mistaken, with the right runway light configuration 1800 rvr is acceptable visibility. Used to do it quite a bit at MKE.

Visibility is the determinant on an approach. Not ceiling. So....piece of cake!

 

[B1900FO]

Also, just checked the plates for STL.

Rwys 11, 12L, and 30R all have a minimum of 1800RVR.

 

[Spooky 2]

Coming out of CPS the other night a Waterski was on approach at STL. Asked for an ambulance to meet them off the runway. RVR was something like 1800 and 100 sky obscured, and I think I heard some guys missing. Of course I hope everything worked out well, but more importantly, did the Captain use proper CRM and consult every possible person in the universe before deciding on whether or not to divert? Discuss!

Right on. Lets all sit here and 2nd guess this guy for the week or so. He made it in okay and I assume legally so end of story.

 

[norskman2]

Right on. Lets all sit here and 2nd guess this guy for the week or so. He made it in okay and I assume legally so end of story.

No, RIP has done us a service. It's easy to sit in an interview and say blahblahblah yeah I'd do this this and this in an emergency.

It's a good reminder that those are not just interview scenarios. They happen in real life and we may have to make real decisions in real time that affect the safety of our crew and passengers.

He's not suggesting the Capt. did anything wrong. And it's important for all of us to second-guess what WE would do in a similar situation.

 

[B1900FO]

He's not suggesting the Capt. did anything wrong. And it's important for all of us to second-guess what WE would do in a similar situation.

What is there to second guess?????? There wasn't anything out of the ordinary in this scenario.

 

[norskman2]

What is there to second guess?????? There wasn't anything out of the ordinary in this scenario.

What do you do if RVR drops below 1800? What do you do if ceiling drops below DH? What if there's freezing rain? What if the nearest alternate is 30 minutes away? What if it looks like the front will pass in 10 minutes?

At what point do you pull the plug on the approach (and likely on the passenger as well)?

 

[T-prop]

-Deleted-

 

[Spooky 2]

What is there to second guess?????? There wasn't anything out of the ordinary in this scenario.

Thanks B1900FO, you just made my point. I like it!

 

[BOHICAgain]

What do you do if RVR drops below 1800? What do you do if ceiling drops below DH? What if there's freezing rain? What if the nearest alternate is 30 minutes away? What if it looks like the front will pass in 10 minutes?

At what point do you pull the plug on the approach (and likely on the passenger as well)?

It all depends on when you found out the pax got sick and what type of medical help the pax needed. If it happend on approach and a medical person in the back states he needs help now you bet you arse that I am landing int STL RVR 1800 or not. 30 minutes away is a long time when it comes to someone needing medical attention. If the rvr dropped to like 1200 before I began the approach I, using my captain authority during and emergency will still do the ILS and ask the tower to turn the lights as bright as possible. If the rvr would be like 300 then no I would not attempt it and if that is the case I would not to an alternate 30 minutes away Im sure around STL they have airports that have ILS and CFR. SO its not serviced by my airline so what. Get the pax out go to the local FBO get fuel and depart back towards your destination, with dispatch approval first though.

 

[Raskal]

Emergency authority...that's all you need to know.

 

[Rip Vanwinkle]

The point I think I was trying to make (besides the snarky jibe about "consulting everyone in the universe") is basically that every once in a while I'm reminded that you guys aren't just a bunch of nancies who argue about whose jet looks better or whose uniform is more professional. It doesn't happen often, but when it does it's worthy of some respect. Boxes don't have heart attacks or families.

Regarding the specifics, the RVR was up and down like it often is with fog. DHL missed and maybe someone else, too, I can't remember. Everything else in the immediate area was reporting worse. I assume they got in or it would probably have made the local news. Definitely not interested in second guessing the guy. More like reminding everyone that those crazy interview questions aren't that crazy and that sometimes you actually have to earn that fat airline pilot paycheck.

 

[B1900FO]

What do you do if ceiling drops below DH?

norskman2,

All good points.

However, ceiling DOES NOT determine whether or not you shoot the approach. ONLY visibility.

Emergency authority is a nice thing, but lets not get stupid. If someone is beating the crap out of the flight attendant, do you leave the cockpit to help??? Don't put the whole airplane in danger to save one person.

Rip...good thread starter. This is where we find out who wins the award for pilot of the year. All pilots are full of crap, including myself.

Merry Christmas!!!

-B1900FO

 

[30West]

Simple answer. I would do everything I could to get the sick pax on the ground as soon as possible. But NOT at the risk of the other 50 or so people onboard.

If the closest airport is below mins and the next airport is 30 minutes away, you're caught between Scylla and Charibdys. There isn't a graceful way out of the situation.
A. Attempt a below mins landing, and risk balling up the airplane on the runway
B. Continue to the next airport, and risk losing the pax if the condition is serious.

If A, how far below do you go? 1200? 1000? 900? 800?

 

[Rally]

At what point does a medical emergency become a emergency. Lose a engine=emergency. Fire=emergency. etc. I don't think when the FAA said that any pilot can deivate for a regulation to the extent to meet the emergency they were thinking about medical emergencies. That said, I'd go slightly under RVR, not much I certainly would'nt risk the other 49 peoples lifes or 300 for that matter. Sometimes things just happen.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

At what point does a medical emergency become a emergency. Lose a engine=emergency. Fire=emergency. etc. I don't think when the FAA said that any pilot can deivate for a regulation to the extent to meet the emergency they were thinking about medical emergencies. That said, I'd go slightly under RVR, not much I certainly would'nt risk the other 49 peoples lifes or 300 for that matter. Sometimes things just happen.

A medical emergency becomes an emergency when you say "Callsign 159 declaring an emergency" It doesn't matter if the passenger just has a hangnail, if you declare an emergency, it is one, with no second guessing of the PIC.

 

[Rally]

I am not second guessing the PIC at all. That is not professional. Nobody here has all the details. All I am saying is declaring a emergency related to the aircraft and flight or the people on board? Fire=airplane can crash and 53 people die. Heart attack=one person can die.

 

[BOHICAgain]

A medical emergency becomes an emergency when you say "Callsign 159 declaring an emergency" It doesn't matter if the passenger just has a hangnail, if you declare an emergency, it is one, with no second guessing of the PIC.

Exactly and RVR how low would you go that is a personal choice, the runway will be there regardeless. If its runway with no contamination with just fog then I might consider going lower. If they are reporting a low MU or poor braking then I ll decide how low I would feel comfortable. There is no wrong answer if you can explain why you did what you did.

I am no doctor and if I declare an emergency im not going to think how sick this guy is and how much I should risk. I am going to do whatever is necessary to achieve the best outcome.

 

[shamrock]

If the closest airport is below mins and the next airport is 30 minutes away, you're caught between Scylla and Charibdys.

I would have had no idea what you were talking about here had I not read Jimmy Buffett's latest book.

You pilots, you very much smart.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

If YOU are certified to conduct ops to 1900 rvr, you had damned well better get your emergency to the ground. You are a professional and expected to do this/

Do you routinely look for ways to get out of doing 1800 rvrs? If so , find a new job!

 

[DrewBlows]

I am not second guessing the PIC at all. That is not professional. Nobody here has all the details. All I am saying is declaring a emergency related to the aircraft and flight or the people on board? Fire=airplane can crash and 53 people die. Heart attack=one person can die.

A medical emergency is just as much of an emergency as any other emergency. You can expect priority handling and are authorized to use deviate from the regulations to the extent necessary to handle the situation. Having said that you better be able to explain why you decided to intentionally break a regulation.

If a passenger is going to die in 10 minutes and it is going to take 30 minutes to divert, I'd say that's a pretty good reason to fly the approach.

 

[DrewBlows]

Here's a training video that addresses a similar scenario.

Training Video

 

[OUPilot]

1800 rvr is not a big deal. it is legal and more than able to be done. how many times has the weather been 1800 + rvr before the marker and then dropped down after you are inside? my guess is that the plane was able to be landed safely. it is not always vfr out there. if you are not confident to shoot an approach and land in this situation, then ask yourself if you should be in this profession.

 

[norskman2]

Exskydiverdrivr vbmenu_register("postmenu_1481440", true);



If YOU are certified to conduct ops to 1900 rvr, you had damned well better get your emergency to the ground. You are a professional and expected to do this/

Do you routinely look for ways to get out of doing 1800 rvrs? If so , find a new job!

1800 rvr is not a big deal. it is legal and more than able to be done. how many times has the weather been 1800 + rvr before the marker and then dropped down after you are inside? my guess is that the plane was able to be landed safely. it is not always vfr out there. if you are not confident to shoot an approach and land in this situation, then ask yourself if you should be in this profession.

Exskydiverdrivr and OUPilot, you guys are missing the point. What if RVR drops to 1700? Do you still shoot the approach? What if it's 1500?

Read BOHICA's excellent post again.

If conditions drop below minimums, how far below minimums are you willing to go? A little? How much is a little? What other factors do you take into account?

Think! One life is certainly at risk. You don't want to put 53 lives at risk.

The point is -- what would you do in a different situation if things weren't so clearcut?

 

[Axel]

I would have had no idea what you were talking about here had I not read Jimmy Buffett's latest book.

You pilots, you very much smart.

Actually it is Homer's poem, not Buffett's book.

Scylla and Charybdis are two sea monsters of Greek mythology situated on opposite sides of a narrow channel of water, so close that sailors avoiding Charybdis will pass too close to Scylla and vice versa. The phrase "between Scylla and Charybdis" has come to mean having to choose between two unattractive choices, and is believed to be the progenitor of the phrase "between a rock and a hard place."

In Homer's Odyssey, Odysseus is given advice by Circe to sail closer to Scylla, for Charybdis could drown his whole ship.

Quite an apt metaphor for the discussion.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

We were just flying in there under those conditions. Our alternate was Champaign, as nowhere near STL was the weather good. We 1st thought we would divert, as the Prevailing Vis was down to 1/4. It was also down to 1600 RVR for 12L (I think that's the parallel they were using).

The RVR held at 1800 for us. Just after the marker, they called it 1400. We are two pilots, and we both had a lot of experience, and it was still tough-should we divert (VERY bad for our customers), or should we shoot the approach vs. fuel to our alternate.

My Capt saw the applights right at DA, and I continued on instruments-got the runway about 100' and landed safely. *Then, during the taxi, ground cleared us right into an aircraft coming off 12L. Luckily, we both saw each other and stopped, otherwise we would've crashed on taxiways, if we'd both followed controller instructions.

I'm sure glad I wasn't single pilot-that would've sucked MASSIVELY.

Usually it's easy, but not always.

cliff
YYZ
PS-Just heard that NJA designates a number of airports as "Mountainous", and they do NO night ops at those airports. I think that's very smart!