International Operations

[thatpilotguy]

I have a question. I know back in my 135 days we were required to hold onto our international trips logs for 2 years or something like that. Does the same rule apply to 91 trips? If so, where can I reference that information.

 

[Check 6]

thatpilotguy, I have been flying Intl. 135 and 91 based in Europe for the past 6+ years and I don't know of any requirement to keep your master logs.

Possibly that was an in-house requirement based on your Ops Manual?

If this is a requirement, I take that back and I have never been outside of the U.S.

 

[banned username 2]

I have a question. I know back in my 135 days we were required to hold onto our international trips logs for 2 years or something like that. Does the same rule apply to 91 trips? If so, where can I reference that information.

I think it is 30 days... Can't remember for sure, our dispatch takes care of that...

 

[Check 6]

W&B/manifest is 30 days, is this is what you are referring to?

 

[banned username 2]

W&B/manifest is 30 days, is this is what you are referring to?

I think he is referring to the Master Flight Log for Oceanic crossings and such...

 

[mike1mc]

I think there is a requirement for SOME European countires that require an "aircraft arrival/departure history" for 12 months. We keep a copy of the flight logs onboard in a seperate binder in the back for this purpose.

 

[banned username 2]

I think there is a requirement for SOME European countires that require an "aircraft arrival/departure history" for 12 months. We keep a copy of the flight logs onboard in a seperate binder in the back for this purpose.

Never heard of that, or asked anything about the history...

 

[G100driver]

I thought it was 6 months for ALL oceanic crossings. This is what my feeble memory tells me from my international training taken at ATI. www.trainati.com

 

[LXJ31]

Our nav planning and logs from oceanic trips are saved for....some period of time, I forget. 30 days, six months, one of the two.

 

[thatpilotguy]

I haven't looked into it, but I rememer when I was doing international operations a few years back for a 135 group that we saved the master flight logs for some period of time but I can't remember the specifics. Does anyone know if there is an FAR that deals with this?

 

[G4G5]

This is the Bible for international operation in the North Atlantic:
http://www.nat-pco.org/nat/MNPSA/MNPSA_2005.pdf

Their is no requirement to keep your "master document" at all. I know for a fact that at American they don't care if you keep it, it's up to the Captain to retain the international paperwork "only if their are known or suspected violations or deviations that may result in an inquiry"

Plotting Charts are only required, "if their has been a route change"

Here is the caveat that everyone is looking for:
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/volume2/media/2_223_00.pdf

The bottom line is the FAA has 45 days to violate you after a crossing. The reporting agency (Gander, Shanwick, Yada Yada) contacts the FAA. The FAA has 15 days to get back to them and find out what happened. Typically it's one of 3 things, GNE, Altitude bust or loss of longitudinal separation.

Then they take that and turn it into a report. At that point they have 45 days to rectify the situation. Which translates to contacting you and getting your side of the story.

It is up to you to maintain the necessary documents to re-track the flight and prove that you did not have a violation. The best way (and the only way I know to do this) is to retain the "master document".

So if you haven't heard anything in 45 days (which most departments turn into 60 days, 2 months). Then you can assume that you are not going to be violated on you crossing.

 

[AA717driver]

TWA kept the documents for 30 days. I would take the paperwork and insert one of the First Class menus with a notation as to which meal each crew member ate and a brief evaluation on the meal. I kept hoping to hear from our Asst. CP. but never did.

We keep ours (91) for a given period of time (in a vault specially constructed in a former Minuteman missile silo near Whiteman AFB...).TC

 

[xcrew]

I would take the paperwork and insert one of the First Class menus with a notation as to which meal each crew member ate and a brief evaluation on the meal.

How did you rate the ratatouille?

 

[AA717driver]

How did you rate the ratatouille?

It was good but I only had it with the Chateaubriand. My favorite was the Swordfish with capers and lemon sauce over rice. That was the L10 days.

From the 767, the best was the duck with morel mushrooms out of CDG. Salmon appitizer... Mmmmm!

What were your favorite meals? Poulet d' Carl? TC

 

[Lead Sled]

I thought it was 6 months for ALL oceanic crossings. This is what my feeble memory tells me from my international training taken at ATI. www.trainati.com

And the correct answer is 6 months - just in case they come back at you and accuse you of a GNE (gross navigational error).

I just keep my planning chart and what ever else I happend to scribble notes, times, fixes, etc. At the end of 6 months you can toss it.

'Sled

 

[G4G5]

And the correct answer is 6 months - just in case they come back at you and accuse you of a GNE (gross navigational error).

I just keep my planning chart and what ever else I happend to scribble notes, times, fixes, etc. At the end of 6 months you can toss it.

'Sled

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/volume2/media/2_223_00.pdf

I read the entire document and no where does it make reference to 6 months. Do you have a reference other then your notes?

 

[xcrew]

What were your favorite meals? Poulet d' Carl? TC

The hot lobster appetizer over pasta eastbound and the second service out of Frankfurt westbound. Pretzles, four types of sausages and sauerkraut with spicy mustard! Uuuummmmm!:nuts:


xcrew

 

[thatpilotguy]

The time it takes to get the info from the oceanic controlling agencies back to the FAA makes sense. If there isn't any hard numbers any where I'll go with 6 months. Better to have the info and not need it, then need it and not have it.

On the catering note, I use to make frequent stops in Keflavik, Iceland on our way back to the U.S. from Europe. I know, I know...but I was young and willing to sit in the front of a Lear 36 for hours on end...in anycase the catering out of Keflavik was great. Almost always fresh seafood, topped with caviar (sp?) Doesn't really complete with roast duck, but I wanted to put in my 2 cents!

 

[banned username 2]

Pretzles, four types of sausages and sauerkraut with spicy mustard! Uuuummmmm!:nuts:

Don't forget a nice stein of Weihenstephaner! The best bier in München! (Well Friesing, but close enough!)

 

[Lead Sled]

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/volume2/media/2_223_00.pdf

I read the entire document and no where does it make reference to 6 months. Do you have a reference other then your notes?

Actually, I don't - other than, as you said, my notes. The 6 month reference has repeatedly come up during my various initial & recurrent IP courses as well as during the 5 or 6 NBAA IOCs that I've attended. (And of course, I've always just assumed... :0 ) Where's JAFI when we need him?

Personally, 6 months works for me. When I get back from a trip, I simply throw all of my planning and trip documents into a manilla envelope and print a date on it with a felt-tip. The envelope goes into a file and perodically (whenever I remember, feel like it, etc.) I go through it and toss the "stale" envelopes.

'Sled