Interesting JB ALPA OC email

[tzflyer]

He is simply fustrated that pilots willfully hand over control of thier careers to managment, who do not have thier interests.

I feel I must point out that all employees, including pilots, futures always rest in the hands of managment whether they have a union or not. Unfortunatley, bad managment seems to be the rule in the airline business rather than the exception. That is why managment needs to look inward when they find themselves facing this kind of situation.
A union will represent the pilots but not be able to run the company. A realistic view is required here.
As for Ford and Harrison, I do believe that both the best and worst pilot contracts in history have been negotiated against them and I would rather have that known evil than some unkown evil. ALPA has the F&H playbook down rather well by now I think.

]

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

[
I feel I must point out that all employees, including pilots, futures always rest in the hands of managment whether they have a union or not.

Agreed, but I am talking about the terms in which a pilot is employed....

Unfortunatley, bad managment seems to be the rule in the airline business rather than the exception. That is why managment needs to look inward when they find themselves facing this kind of situation.
A union will represent the pilots but not be able to run the company. A realistic view is required here.

Agreed. Pilots don't run airlines.... and having a representation does suggest the union wants too...

 

[WayBack]

ALPA= False sense of security.
Your contract is as worthless as the paper it's written on.
You'll just become more frustrated when you realize ALPA really does nothing, and you're throwing your pay check at them.

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

ALPA= False sense of security.
Your contract is as worthless as the paper it's written on.
You'll just become more frustrated when you realize ALPA really does nothing, and you're throwing your pay check at them.

I suppose the same can be said of the PEA I currently have. The difference is that with a union, I actually have a say in something, rather than having no say whatsoever. Last I checked, I did not get to vote on the new FSM, and I was never invited to any PVC meetings.

I have auto insurance for a reason. It's there when and if I need it. I have health insurance for the same reason. I never enjoy dealing with insurance companies, and I sure don't like paying for them. But when and if something happens, whether it be a car accident, or health issues, at least I have some type of protection in place. Someone will go to bat for me. I know ALPA cannot solve everything. But at least ALPA has the resources. Although there are no guarantees, I would rather have someone in my corner than no one at all when and if need them.

My career is too important not to have some type of insurance in place. I'll gladly pay for this. At least I can deduct the dues on my tax return.

 

[BeachBummer]

ALPA= False sense of security.
Your contract is as worthless as the paper it's written on.
You'll just become more frustrated when you realize ALPA really does nothing, and you're throwing your pay check at them.

The quote at the bottom of your post says it all.

 

[Regul8r]

I have auto insurance for a reason. It's there when and if I need it. I have health insurance for the same reason. I never enjoy dealing with insurance companies, and I sure don't like paying for them. But when and if something happens, whether it be a car accident, or health issues, at least I have some type of protection in place. Someone will go to bat for me. I know ALPA cannot solve everything. But at least ALPA has the resources. Although there are no guarantees, I would rather have someone in my corner than no one at all when and if need them.

My career is too important not to have some type of insurance in place. I'll gladly pay for this. At least I can deduct the dues on my tax return.

What kind of "insurance" do you really expect for 2% of your pay? Fear mongering ALPA Kool-Aide aside, that was a nicely regurgitated paragraph from the ALPA Pamphlet.

Look around you at how much "control" ALPA has bestowed on your fellow ALPA pilots. Let the excuses commence...

 

[Regul8r]

Your contract is as worthless as the paper it's written on.

The quote at the bottom of your post says it all.

History, The RLA, and Bankruptcy court judges support his statement. What's your excuse?

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

What kind of "insurance" do you really expect for 2% of your pay? Fear mongering ALPA Kool-Aide aside, that was a nicely regurgitated paragraph from the ALPA Pamphlet.

Look around you at how much "control" ALPA has bestowed on your fellow ALPA pilots. Let the excuses commence...

Fear mongering? Really? Obviously you couldn't read my post without creating your own spin from it. If there is a pamphlet out there reiterating what I have said, I have yet to read or see it. What I wrote is how I feel. It's as simple as that. You insinuate that if I, or anyone else for that matter, would like to see ALPA on the property, then we are under their "control?" So let me get this straight......if someone's opinion differs from yours, then they are obviously under some type of "control?" Talk about fear mongering. The hypocrisy in your statement speaks for itself.

I also love your statement at the end......"let the excuses commence." Now there's a nice invitation to a pissing contest! No thanks. Ridiculing people because you disagree with them does not promote open minded discussions, yet instead shows lack of maturity, professionalism, and respect.

I hope that everyone out there educates themselves on the issues at hand by engaging BOTH sides in a respectful manner. In the end, all you can do is make the best decision possible for you and your family. Fly safe!

 

[BeachBummer]

Well, if I had it my way, we would just start the card campaign tomorrow and see what the masses say! But that's just my opinion. I'm sure some of those involved will have differing opinions.

On with the opinion making!

 

[Regul8r]

It's as simple as that. You insinuate that if I, or anyone else for that matter, would like to see ALPA on the property, then we are under their "control?"

No...there is a faction of cheerleaders stumping for ALPA. One of the on going themes is taking back "control" of your career. My question is: What control?

Sure, it sounds good...but it's just an empty campaign slogan (figuratively speaking)

Weigh and explore ALL options available before going home with the easiest slut (ALPA) at the party

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

um...so..you're happy with your direct relationship there? Did your co-pay go up? You're right on track with CREWASS, are ya?

 

[BeachBummer]

No...there is a faction of cheerleaders stumping for ALPA. One of the on going themes is taking back "control" of your career. My question is: What control?

Sure, it sounds good...but it's just an empty campaign slogan (figuratively speaking)

Weigh and explore ALL options available before going home with the easiest slut (ALPA) at the party

All due respect to the slut, but we tried to date the prom queen and she talked the talk all the way to the party. Once we got there she left us standing on the door step with promise in one hand and nothin in the other. I hate blue balls man.

ALPA may be a slut, but she's a well funded slut. A slut with organization that some of the other hoes didn't. Atleast I know I'm gonna get alittle taste of the goods after I work for it.

She's not gonna be perfect, but she'll do the job.

All analogys aside. In the position that we're in, how many times do you have to ask for something (anything) and be told we're working to fix it. Only to find out that it's not broken it's like that on purpose, and there is no intention to "fix" anything? Even a child knows that maybe means no!

Frankly with whatever ALPA's issues are we are ready to pay for the service they provide.

 

[curtaindriver]

Well, if I had it my way, we would just start the card campaign tomorrow and see what the masses say! But that's just my opinion. I'm sure some of those involved will have differing opinions.

On with the opinion making!

You should have wished for a million bucks too man!! Good luck starting tomorrow!!

CD

Yes ALPA

 

[Vingus]

All due respect to the slut, but we tried to date the prom queen and she talked the talk all the way to the party. Once we got there she left us standing on the door step with promise in one hand and nothin in the other. I hate blue balls man.

ALPA may be a slut, but she's a well funded slut. A slut with organization that some of the other hoes didn't. Atleast I know I'm gonna get alittle taste of the goods after I work for it.

She's not gonna be perfect, but she'll do the job.

All analogys aside. In the position that we're in, how many times do you have to ask for something (anything) and be told we're working to fix it. Only to find out that it's not broken it's like that on purpose, and there is no intention to "fix" anything? Even a child knows that maybe means no!

Frankly with whatever ALPA's issues are we are ready to pay for the service they provide.

This is the most insightful way of putting things that I've seen in many posts. Spot on!

 

[BeachBummer]

This is the most insightful way of putting things that I've seen in many posts. Spot on!

Burbon does that to me... i hsould have started sooner!

 

[Regul8r]

All due respect to the slut, but we tried to date the prom queen and she talked the talk all the way to the party. Once we got there she left us standing on the door step with promise in one hand and nothin in the other. I hate blue balls man.

ALPA may be a slut, but she's a well funded slut. A slut with organization that some of the other hoes didn't. Atleast I know I'm gonna get alittle taste of the goods after I work for it.

She's not gonna be perfect, but she'll do the job.

All analogys aside. In the position that we're in, how many times do you have to ask for something (anything) and be told we're working to fix it. Only to find out that it's not broken it's like that on purpose, and there is no intention to "fix" anything? Even a child knows that maybe means no!

Frankly with whatever ALPA's issues are we are ready to pay for the service they provide.

That's just it...you don't know if you're "gonna get a taste of the goods" after you work for it. You, being an INFORMED member of the OC, should know this! But you'll go on espousing it to the uninformed, who'll take your word for it (because you're a smart, unbiased OC member). And if it doesn't come to fruition...the membership will come back to you wanting answers. And what'll you do? Blame it on the membership of course...

And the cycle will continue. In all your effort to help, you're actually sowing the seeds of discontent for ALPA at jB. Wake up!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That's just it...you don't know if you're "gonna get a taste of the goods" after you work for it. !

Explain, justify and provide a real example... of what you mean

 

[BeachBummer]

That's just it...you don't know if you're "gonna get a taste of the goods" after you work for it. You, being an INFORMED member of the OC, should know this! But you'll go on espousing it to the uninformed, who'll take your word for it (because you're a smart, unbiased OC member). And if it doesn't come to fruition...the membership will come back to you wanting answers. And what'll you do? Blame it on the membership of course...

And the cycle will continue. In all your effort to help, you're actually sowing the seeds of discontent for ALPA at jB. Wake up!

Wide awake fella. I guess there are two schools of thought at work here. We both agree that the masses need to educate themselves on the situation. The end game we will disagree on forever. I'm glad you feel so strongly that the company will do whats right. The problem is there has been no fruition from the company with the current process. Your whole argument is "if" it doesnt come to fruition using ALPA? Time will tell if ALPA "gets us a taste" or not. One would argue: would you go to the store and buy rotten fruit? Unless this company turns south and heads for ch7 we're in a good position to negotiate.

The time has come to take a different road. I 'm sure there will be tough times ahead, the difference is we will have input in the direction. Currently we take what we get and are expected to be joyful. I for one choose to choose.

 

[9rj9]

If it wasn't for unions including ALPA we would all be replaced by guys who would work for half the pay and no work rules that would eventually be replaced by chinos or whatever was the cheap flavor of the year was. The Jetblue crowd is paid based on the average union pilot wage, thus they benefit from the union everyone else has. ALPA has issues but unions are absoulutely necessary in the line of work.

 

[shadesofBS]

I just read this thread for the first time.

Where has it been hiding?

Oh...

...in the LCC forum.

Morons!

 

[BeachBummer]

This is the tier B carriers forum. You got the email didn't you!?!?

 

[Fins Up]

I hate to say it but the "Tier B" thing is an ALPA term based on number of pilots in the group. Don't know when it started but it's not just Sandy making shtuff up.

 

[airjackson]

If it wasn't for unions including ALPA we would all be replaced by guys who would work for half the pay and no work rules that would eventually be replaced by chinos or whatever was the cheap flavor of the year was. QUOTE]

Not always. Ask the ALPA-represented pilots of Trans States how that contract protected them when the holding company produced the steaming pile known as "GoJet".

I've held off wading into the discussion here- it's usually more like a shouting match- but I'll throw in a quick 2cents.

Overall, I think ALPA has done a lot of good for this industry. I came from an ALPA carrier, I volunteered and was a Committee chairman. I've walked picket lines. I've also worked at a company which had no union- and didn't need one, in my opinion. Management treated us well, paid us fairly, and took care of us.

In my short time at JB, I've tried to solicit any and all input regarding the issues. From both sides. Count me in the camp that just doesn't think that we need ALPA on property right now. It comes down to a decision that, while not perfect, there is absolutely nothing that has convinced me that we would be BETTER off with ALPA right now. The only certainty is we'd all take a 2-3% pay cut (not sure exactly what the dues are right now). Then we start from scratch, negotiating everything, much of which we already have.

I've been ALPA. Again, I'm not anti-ALPA or anti-union. Just don't think we need them here. I'm certainly not alone. There are more than a few ex-MEC Chairman here who feel the same way. That which is most important to a particular pilot group is not always most important to Nat'l. I saw this in the past. It's inherent in any organization as large as ALPA. Anyone who thinks that simply bring ALPA onto the property is suddenly going to fix the few problems we have here is naive.

 

[Mamma]

If it wasn't for unions including ALPA we would all be replaced by guys who would work for half the pay and no work rules that would eventually be replaced by chinos or whatever was the cheap flavor of the year was. QUOTE]

Not always. Ask the ALPA-represented pilots of Trans States how that contract protected them when the holding company produced the steaming pile known as "GoJet".

I've held off wading into the discussion here- it's usually more like a shouting match- but I'll throw in a quick 2cents.

Overall, I think ALPA has done a lot of good for this industry. I came from an ALPA carrier, I volunteered and was a Committee chairman. I've walked picket lines. I've also worked at a company which had no union- and didn't need one, in my opinion. Management treated us well, paid us fairly, and took care of us.

In my short time at JB, I've tried to solicit any and all input regarding the issues. From both sides. Count me in the camp that just doesn't think that we need ALPA on property right now. It comes down to a decision that, while not perfect, there is absolutely nothing that has convinced me that we would be BETTER off with ALPA right now. The only certainty is we'd all take a 2-3% pay cut (not sure exactly what the dues are right now). Then we start from scratch, negotiating everything, much of which we already have.

I've been ALPA. Again, I'm not anti-ALPA or anti-union. Just don't think we need them here. I'm certainly not alone. There are more than a few ex-MEC Chairman here who feel the same way. That which is most important to a particular pilot group is not always most important to Nat'l. I saw this in the past. It's inherent in any organization as large as ALPA. Anyone who thinks that simply bring ALPA onto the property is suddenly going to fix the few problems we have here is naive.

I see your point. But, I think the issue is not necessarily that you need a union RIGHT NOW to fix your problems, but maybe to prevent your problems down the road. From your experience, I sure don't need to tell you the benefits and problems with ALPA, but they are better than nothing if you are looking down the road a little.

 

[BeachBummer]

Mamma +1

Think about life after Dave.

 

[Regul8r]

Explain, justify and provide a real example... of what you mean

airjackson did it for me...Trans States. Houlas gave the ALPA represented TSA pilots the ole' K.C. Shuffle.

Where's their payoff?