Integrating seniority Major and Reg's.

[Boz]

Curious about what regional airline pilots think of this idea. I know and have flown with many regional airline pilots that among the most qualified to conduct Part 121 flying.

I also, think that the regionals are no longer regionals as they fly aircraft that have entered a new category that remains unnamed as the rgionals now fly bigger and more comparabile aircraft to the majors.


By ERIC TORBENSON / The Dallas Morning News

AMR Corp. has offered to combine the seniority lists between American Airlines and its regional affiliate, American Eagle, a change American pilots have wanted for years.

The proposal – part of ongoing contract talks between the Fort Worth-based carrier and the Allied Pilots Association – would represent a significant change in how AMR operates.

In exchange for combining the seniority lists, AMR would gain far more flexibility in using its fleet of regional jets and turboprop planes. The current contract limits how many AMR can use if American pilots are furloughed.

Under the proposal, AMR's regional jet fleet could grow to as many as 448 aircraft from its current 286. That's significant because the airline believes the smaller regional jets can make more money in the difficult economy than its larger jets on many routes.

One pilots' union official said the combining of the seniority lists was an encouraging start.

"This is our proposal – this was our initiative," said Steve Blankenship, chair of the communications committee for APA. "Our negotiating committee will be in the process of evaluating the proposal."

Eagle's pilots' union officials also saw the proposal as noteworthy.

"The fact that AMR wants to talk about combining the airlines is significant because it's a new position for them," said James Magee, a spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association chapter representing the Eagle pilots.

AMR would only confirm that talks are continuing.

"American Airlines and the APA have been in negotiations for some time on scope issues and have exchanged proposals," said Bruce Hicks, a spokesman for the airline.

The APA represents 13,000 pilots at American Airlines. Of those, 1,015 are currently on furlough.

At Eagle, the Air Line Pilots Association represents 2,100 pilots, about 250 of whom are on furlough. Under the proposal from AMR, the APA would negotiate with ALPA to settle a host of issues related to merging the lists.

If the proposal were to become part of a ratified contract, pilots from Eagle could, in theory, "flow" through the seniority list, giving them the chance to fly American's larger planes as they gained seniority.

Previously, AMR executives have strongly opposed integration of the mainline carrier and its regional partner, saying it would be too costly.

Combining the seniority lists might not add much cost to AMR. Eagle's lower contract wage rates would stay in place, for example.

However, the proposal would accomplish a long-held goal of APA: to have all flying done by AMR under one group of pilots.

A pilot's career is based on his seniority; his or her pay, job and job security are linked directly to how long they've been at a particular airline. Seniority isn't portable. Once a pilot chooses to work for one airline, rarely will that person leave to fly for another because they start at the bottom of a seniority list.

APA says AMR can solve its revenue problems by completely merging Eagle into American, cutting out the extra layer of administration and creating a more nimble airline that can fly any type of aircraft anywhere without contract limitations currently in place.

The airline has said before that it can't run Eagle profitably using American contract rates and work rules.

AMR reported a $529 million fourth-quarter loss and a $3.5 billion year-end loss on Wednesday, and said its losses were "unsustainable."

Its shares closed down 11 cents to $3.66 on Thursday.

 

[blzr]

I remembre a nursery rhyme that started "Come into my parlor said the spider to the fly". Seems innocent enough at first, but look a little closer. If AMR puts all the Eagle pilots at the bottom of the seniority list, can't they all be flushed out on the street and the previously, and pending furloughed pilots would fly the RJ's?

Just sounds suspicious having a major "ASKING" a hated stepchild aka a wholly owned subsidiary, to be a part of their world. Unless there's something in it for them (mainline).

that's the way i see it, but I have never been right before..

 

[CaptWidgeon]

As an outsider to AMR and AE I am curious about the single pilot list. Are they simply putting all AE on the bottom of AA? How does AA hire a non-AE pilot without stepping on them?

If you've got an AE capt. hired say Jan. 95, and AA hires a non-AE pilot Jan. 03. Then the AE capt. gets hired at AA Jun. 03 does the non-AE guy drop in seniority? And who is higher on the pay scale? Does the AE pilot automatically go to 8 yr. AA FO pay?

Just wondering how all this meshes together.

 

[cornbread]

Stapling "baaaaad"

It does sound suspect to offer Eagle this option now...
If they are sincere they should try this method.

Ratio method

13,000 AMR pilots divided by 2,100 Eagle pilots = 6.19 [6]
(you could even massage this figure with figures of revenue,
pax, fleet, etc. for a more liberal or realistic number)

Start at the top and integrate an Eagle into the list after every 6 (or devised #) AMR pilot.

I know it sounds outrageous, but since AMR is making the offer it seems like this would uncover their seriousness, or their intent. Because, in my opinioin, to offer the merge and and then staple...well...we know who that would benefit. I would expect to see a lot of Eagle pilots on the street after a "merge/staple".

Stapling hurts if you're on the bottom. The only time I could imagine it being reasonable is if it preserved jobs that would no longer exist without stapling. In this case it would be no different (perhaps better, as it might save a few seniority spots) than a company going under and then interviewing at the "new" company and being a new-hire.

just my lame angle

 

[cl-65link]

Ufrotunately, it looks like AE pilots = furlough protection for AA pilots. Let's hope not.

 

[Mayday911]

The management proposal is nothing more than an improved flow through agreement with a 2 for 1 claus until 2007. The AE capts. that already have seniority numbers will keep their numbers and everyone else will be given a number whenever they qualify for it (probably make RJ Capt.). AA will hire off the street and the new hires there will have a better seniority number than the AE pilots that have not gotten a number yet. I flew for AE for three years, and have alot of friends still there....and they are all still looking for other jobs. One friend just got hired by Comair and another by Air Wisconsin, and they are taking the class dates offered. Some of the AE ALPA reps are telling all of the pilots to leave because they are going to get screwed if the 2 companies become one. Also, if there is no scope clause anymore, who says that AMR will not continue to farm out the flying to the American Connection carriers, who are not included in any of the proposals, and keep more AMR pilots on the street.

Mayday

 

[3green]

First of all, onelist would get rid of all the outsourcing Ie TSA/CHQ (sorry guys) and in no way will Eagle pilots except anything that is going to put them on the street.

Id like to see how NWA/MSB/PIN would do it and DL/COM/ASA how do these guys think it would hapen at there companys.

 

[OakRBust]

Easy...


It is never going to happen at 9E, Mesaba, and NWA. There is nothing good in it for management. Evil red loves to whipsaw the three groups. If anything, I am sure that there will be even more red headed step children joining the NWA family soon (IE Big Sky)


The more competition = a happier management group = unhappy pilots all around!



OAK

 

[stb]

Ask any ex-TWA pilots..

how merging with the American pilots worked out.

Basicly the TWA pilots with 3 years or less to retirerment were mergered in the list and fenced from AA equipment and the rest of TWA's pilots were stapled to the bottom of the AA list. Which most are now furloughed.

 

[C-5 MEM]

I am going to put in my two cents............

If you guys/gals recall a few years ago when American merged with TWA and they merged there seniority list. And now look what has happend. All of those pilots who were merged were kicked out the door when things got bad and American sitting tall.

I would say becareful