Insurance Requirements

[flyboy]

I'm currently flying with a lawyer in his 58 barron. I've accumulated around 25 hours in it over the past 3 weeks. The lawyer sits in the back and does his briefs and prepares for meetings. Recently he attempted to name me on the insurance and the company wanted 500 multi and 2000 total. Is this absurd? I don't get this. I have 1200 total and 200 multi. My multi breakdown is 90 hours navajo, 15 hours king air, 25 hours barron and the rest is duchess/seneca time. Is there any dealing with these people? I know a guy with less than 100 multi and 500 total flying a barron for an attorney in Florida. What can I do?

Also, I helped a doctor reach insurance requirements (only 25 hours) in his barron a few months ago. How am I ok'd for that but not in this case?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I'm currently flying with a lawyer in his 58 barron. I've accumulated around 25 hours in it over the past 3 weeks. The lawyer sits in the back and does his briefs and prepares for meetings. Recently he attempted to name me on the insurance and the company wanted 500 multi and 2000 total. Is this absurd? I don't get this. I have 1200 total and 200 multi. My multi breakdown is 90 hours navajo, 15 hours king air, 25 hours barron and the rest is duchess/seneca time. Is there any dealing with these people? I know a guy with less than 100 multi and 500 total flying a barron for an attorney in Florida. What can I do?

2000 total is pretty standard now for a Baron. The 500 Multi is about right to get the "Standard" premium. Premium rates increase dramatically when you get under this number. This is from a part 91 standpoint. The 135 operators already pay such a high premium that their limits tend to be lower from what I have seen.

I do some contract work in a 58 baron. The whole reason is that the owner (3000 total and about 100 multi) does not have enough time to be covered in the plane for anything that could be considered a resonable premium. They want him to have 200 in type before thay will cover him.

Corporate jets now require 5000 total and 1000 jet to not be hassled by the ins. companies.

In my experience it mostly comes down to how much the owner wants to pay to have a low time guy as his pilot. If he likes the way you fly and likes your work ethic you can probably convince him to keep you on at the higher premium rates until your time comes up.

One other note, with the lawyer sitting in the back (is he a pilot?)and only you up front, if something happens there is zero coverage on the airplane until you are named on the policy. You are very open to litigation and monetary risk if this is the case.

 

[flyboy]

He has 3100 TT and 2500 multi

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

He has 3100 TT and 2500 multi

I take that to mean that you have been the only one up front in your flights to date.

You can do what you like, but with him in the back and you flying, your schlong is hanging in the wind big time until you are covered in the plane. Blow a tire on landing and slide off the runway, or worse, and there is no way that you could ever repay the debt that you will be saddled with in your lifetime. Especially if someone gets hurt.

Of course if you have 4 or 5 million in the bank, you probably do not have to worry about it.

As far as insurance, shop the various companies. If you go to Flight safety, they will probably cover you now without killing you too bad on the rates. Seems silly to have to do FS for a baron I know, but in the end it is the insurance companies, not the FAA that dictates what you can and cannot fly.

I do not know what a place like FS charges for a Baron, but if it is like initial and recurrent on jets, it is not going to be cheap. Most biz jets run in the 14k range for a type and 6 to 8 k for recurrent, so I would guess a baron will probably set you back 3 or 4 k at least.

 

[flyboy]

It's just unbelievable to me that it's come to this. I was talking to a guy today who said that he was flying a cheyenne single pilot with only 600 hours TT and 130 multi back in 1988. The barron is just NOT that difficult. I find the navajo to be much more of a bear than the barron. In this business you must have time to get a job, but you must have a job to get time. What do you do? I know of 2 regional airline captains that couldn't meet the total time requirements on the barron (on paper). It's easier to get a job as a first officer on a regional jet than it is to fly a barron for an attorney.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

It's just unbelievable to me that it's come to this. I was talking to a guy today who said that he was flying a cheyenne single pilot with only 600 hours TT and 130 multi back in 1988. The barron is just NOT that difficult. I find the navajo to be much more of a bear than the barron. In this business you must have time to get a job, but you must have a job to get time. What do you do? I know of 2 regional airline captains that couldn't meet the total time requirements on the barron (on paper). It's easier to get a job as a first officer on a regional jet than it is to fly a barron for an attorney.

First when writing to an insurance company make sure you spell BARON correctly, this might be a good first step


The difference between the regionals and 135 from part 91 is the training requirements. Part 121 and 135 require the PIC to take a checkride every six months and recurrent ground school every year.

Part 91 only requires token training, and the insurance companies only require recurrent once a year on turbine equipment. As far as type ratings go in Bizjets, any idiot with a check can get a rating from FS, Sim-com, or whoever. Compared with the 121 operators the training is a joke.

But you are right, a Baron is very easy to fly. Problem is that some bean counter and not a pilot is making up the rules we have to live with.

 

[Vik]

1988 was 1988. Insurance has changed A LOT since then in general aviation.

Are you trying to get named on a commercial policy? As in, he has hired you to fly his plane for him or are you on his personal policy and you're getting some free flight time?

Fewer and fewer insurance companies are insuring twins. 500 multi sounds odd because they dont require you to have X hrs of time in type.

Btw, if you gave him his 25 hrs dual time in type, did you meet his insurance carrier's requirements as the MEI? I know for my PA-30, my 25 hours had to be given by a MEI who was current in type and had 1500 hrs total time, etc, etc. not to mention 10 hrs time in type.

He could shop around a little. If its a commercial insurance policy, you'll get the same crap everywhere.

I'm currently flying with a lawyer in his 58 barron. I've accumulated around 25 hours in it over the past 3 weeks. The lawyer sits in the back and does his briefs and prepares for meetings. Recently he attempted to name me on the insurance and the company wanted 500 multi and 2000 total. Is this absurd? I don't get this. I have 1200 total and 200 multi. My multi breakdown is 90 hours navajo, 15 hours king air, 25 hours barron and the rest is duchess/seneca time. Is there any dealing with these people? I know a guy with less than 100 multi and 500 total flying a barron for an attorney in Florida. What can I do?

Also, I helped a doctor reach insurance requirements (only 25 hours) in his barron a few months ago. How am I ok'd for that but not in this case?