Instrument training

[hammer]

Started my instrument training today and got a little actual time in the clouds. As most of you already know it is a whole different world flying by instruments! I did alright but, I need lots of practice on being more precise with my corrections. My instrutor had me do take-off with the foggles on and I handled that alright but my landing was terrible. He had me keep the foggles on until about 100 ft above the runway and when I pulled them up I became disoriented and made a sloppy landing. He said it happens alot and that I would get use to it. Anyway I enjoyed the hell out it and am looking forward to my next lesson.

 

[labbats]

You'll enjoy it a lot more if you dump that yahoo instructor.

 

[weekendwarrior]

100 feet? That's a little close. Heck, I flew an ILS to 300' AGL before breaking out last week, and I thought that was close. Why he thinks you should remove the foggles at 100' is insane. He's training you to go below your minimums (isn't 200' the lowest a precision will go? Got to look that one up)

 

[bobbysamd]

Breaking out

What the he11 is he doing? Having you shoot approaches on your first instrument flight lesson? There is a building-block approach to instrument training, just as there is for all other forms of flight training. The first lesson should be basic maneuvering, which you should have first worked on in the ground trainer.

In any event, DH for ILSs is 200 feet. Unless there is a ceiling, from which you break out, usually the runway environment comes up on you gradually as you shoot an approach, so pulling off the hood abruptly at 100 feet is not realistic training - and not enough time this early in the game to prepare for landing. Moreover, as opined above, you do not even want to consider any kind of mindset about going below minimums.

That's my $0.02. Keep us updated.

 

[weekendwarrior]

No doubt! I don't think I shot an approach until at least the 3rd or 4th lesson. You have to get your basic instrument control down first. Control touch, scan, etc. I say lose the CFI NOW before you get any bad habits.

 

[Matterhorn]

Every time I’ve cut down on the beginning attitude instrument flying portion of a student’s IFR training they have suffered later on. You should spend plenty of time and lessons doing boring climbs, turns descents tracking, intercepting, etc. It’s not much fun but is a critical building block for flying well later when you have to “put it all together.”

 

[Snakum]

You'll enjoy it a lot more if you dump that yahoo instructor.

I wuz kinda wonder'n 'bout dat myself. Even working with two different instructors/schools I spent alot of time working on the guages/partial panel/AIF before I did any approaches.

And I'm about to make it three instructors/schools

Minh

 

[Flying Colors]

Everyone who responed to has said it all. As a CFII myself I was not only teaching but I was also learning on being a sound instructor. The ILS approach in my opinion is the most challenging segment to teach next to entry to a holding pattern. With that said, the training syllabus does not provide enough practice for the ILS and I did introduced it early in the training but to do it on the first lesson is crazy. I agree with weekendwarrior, about the 4th lesson is a good time do it while in VMC conditions or with a ceiling high enough say 1000' AGL. I would have you fly the ILS first with the foggles off so you can see the picture. Then then have you take it off at 200 - 300' AGL. not 100', geez. I know if I did that back when I was instructing I probably would lose alot of students due to that overwhelming you.

Good Luck on your training hammer.

 

[hammer]

I was wondering if that was normal for the first lesson, because like I said it overwhelmed me being that close to the runway. I am still a new pilot so I really like to have everything set up correctly on final to make a good landing. He had me fly simulated radar vectors on final so that threw my timing off. Everyone at the flight school said he was one of the better instructors so I will see how it goes for the next couple of lessons. By the way we did alot of straight and level flight, standard rate turns and climbs and descent.

 

[JeffSKDTW]

Hammer -

First, good luck with your training and, by the way, your landings ~will~ go to pot during instrument training. It's the law of nature.

Second, now that you know that removing your hood at 100AGL is unusual, at the least, ask your instructor about it, noting that most ILS's have a DH of 200 AGL.

Third, when you say that you did a "take-off with the foggles on", I'm assuming you mean they were actually covering your eyes, rather than just up on your head. In that case, I'm also surprised he had you doing zero-zero takeoffs this early. Perhaps that's not unusual for others, but I went about 2/3 through my instrument training before I did a zero-zero takeoff--I guess I had enough other things to work on.

 

[LewisU_Pilot]

I didn't start shooting approaches until stage 3 of my instrument training. Many many hours into it!! I have nothing to add on what everyone has said however am I the only one here who has never taken off with the hood on? Never once did that during my training! Waited till we were at least air born and in climb until the hood was placed on..

 

[JeffSKDTW]

I didn't start shooting approaches until stage 3 of my instrument training. Many many hours into it!! I have nothing to add on what everyone has said however am I the only one here who has never taken off with the hood on? Never once did that during my training! Waited till we were at least air born and in climb until the hood was placed on..

As I indicated above, I did it--once. It is to simulate a zero vis - zero ceiling takeoff that is technically permissible for Part 91 operations. However, I suspect that it will be the only one I'll ever do, since I certainly won't be doing it in "real" life.

 

[weekendwarrior]

As I indicated above, I did it--once. It is to simulate a zero vis - zero ceiling takeoff that is technically permissible for Part 91 operations. However, I suspect that it will be the only one I'll ever do, since I certainly won't be doing it in "real" life.

Yeah, my instructor did the same thing to me. Just a demo, really to show you that it's prett insane to do a zero/zero takeoff. I think that might be a common teaching technique. Needless to say, I learned from it.

If your school says he's one of the better instructors, I'd start evaluating the school. Perhaps he is a good instructor, just with a couple of off base techniques. Nevertheless, it can't hurt to bring it up to him. If any time you feel rushed, or question the way something is being taught, you need to voice it. It's your money, and if he has any concern for your training, he'll listen.

 

[dasmith]

Instrument Training Handbook

The old version has a series of introductory lessons for aircraft control. I'd recommend taking a look and doing some of those introductory exercises early on in your training to build your skills. Available online at:
www.geocities.com/cfidarren/iplesson.htm

 

[bobbysamd]

Instrument training is just like any other part of flight training. You must use the building-block concept. The first part is developing cross-check, with that progressing into vertical-S's and patterns A, B and C, full and partial-panel. Then, you teach radio navigation. Shooting approaches is basically a matter of integrating vertical S's, the patterns, and radio nav. The last thing that should be taught are ILSs. By this time, an ILS should be easy, because all it is is executing a rate descent vertical S while tracking a radial. Taking someone down to minima on the first lesson and expecting him/her to land the airplane is not good instrument instruction in any way.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

First lesson, I wouldn't expect a student to do an approach to 100 ft. But, you do have to get down after a lesson and the way an instrument flight terminates IS an instrument approach. It costs you nothing in time to do simulated radar vectors to an ILS when the student is still new and it gives them approach practice. Add in the fact that an ILS is the easiest approach to shoot and you have the basics.

PS: What's vertical-S's and patterns A, B, C?

 

[bobbysamd]

Basic instrument training maneuvers

What's vertical-S's and patterns A, B, C?

A vertical S is a constant rate and/or airspeed climb during which you climb to a certain altitude and then commence a constant rate and/or airspeed descent to a certain altitude. Variations which are part of the series include Vertical S-1s, S-2s and S-3s.

Patterns A, B and C are difficult to describe in writing. Featured in them are straight-and-level flight for timed periods, timed turns, and course reversals such as you'd use for procedure turns. Look in the Instrument Flying Handbook. These maneuvers are part of a standardized instrument training syllabus. I believe that even the military uses them in instrument training.

The patterns should be practiced using full panel and partial panel. We even taught them to our Alitalia students at FlightSafety using the AI and clock only, because Alitalia believed in the control-performance philosophy of instrument flying and wanted to hammer home the use of the AI as the primary flight control instrument. In any event, as I wrote above, vertical-S's and the patterns should be taught and mastered fully long before approaches are even considered because approaches simply combine these maneuvers and radio navigation.

 

[garf12]

wow I'm not even PPL yet, but from all this talk getting your IFR seems complicated.

 

[bobbysamd]

wow I'm not even PPL yet, but from all this talk getting your IFR seems complicated.

You're going to get some instrument training that is intended for emergency use only as part of your Private training. You will also learn about radio navigation, including VORs and NDBs. So, instrument flying will not be altogether unfamiliar when you start your formal training for your instrument training.

Here's some $0.02 advice. Try as hard as you can and get the best instruction possible right now during your Private and build a good, solid foundation of flying. Everything that follows, including instrument training, just builds on that important foundatin.

 

[labbats]

It's too bad that as a CFII, you really get your schtick together for teaching flight in IMC, then you move on. If this guy is the best they have, you're really off to a bad start. If someone asked me how to learn instrument flying, and I wan't available, I'd suggest one of those guys that flies his own plane all over america with you, in all kinds of weather. You'll get it done right the first time, and quickly too. The initial price seems high, but when you factor in the price of standard FBO/flight school prices over time, it's a wash.