Instructor: CMR 5191 Pilots Violated Rules

[BoilerUP]

AP) - A Comair pilot instructor said the pilots of Flight 5191 would have failed a flight test for violating rules the day the flight crashed, killing 49 people, according to court documents.

Comair Capt. Thomas Scharold testified in a deposition that the pilots violated briefing, taxi and "sterile cockpit" rules, which say pilots must maintain a distraction-free cockpit. Scharold is a line check pilot, a veteran pilot who trains other pilots.

Scharold said if he had been instructing Flight 5191's pilots - Jeff Clay and first officer James Polehinke, the sole survivor - he would not have let them take off. The pilots steered the plane onto an unlit runway too short for a commercial jet to take off in the pre-dawn hours of Aug. 27.

All Comair pilots are required to receive training from line check pilots each year and must pass flight tests, a Comair spokeswoman said.

Scharold is one of three Comair instructors whose depositions are excerpted in a court brief filed Tuesday by the airport in response to allegations made by Comair. The airline has noted that published airport diagrams that were in use the morning of the crash had mislabeled a taxiway.

Comair, based near Cincinnati in Erlanger, Ky., has filed a third-party claim against Blue Grass Airport in a lawsuit filed by relatives of one crash victim.
Dozens of other lawsuits against Comair have been filed by crash victims in state and federal courts.

Airport attorney Tom Halbleib said the instructors' testimony was consistent with evidence released by the National Transportation Safety Board showing that the pilots violated company and Federal Aviation Administration rules by talking about their families, work and other subjects while preparing for takeoff.

Comair spokeswoman Kate Marx said the deposition excerpts don't tell the whole story. "The depositions of the (instructors) were extensive, and their individual comments should not be taken out of context," she said, declining further comment.

Polehinke's lawyer also declined comment.
The NTSB is scheduled to meet next week in Washington, D.C., to issue a probable cause of the crash.

 

[GOULET!]

Guarantee those guys wouldn't have been talking during taxi if it was a line check or PC. This instructor pilot is all high and mighty but Id bet my certificates that you pull any CVR from one of his flights and you will hear him breaking the sterile cockpit rule. No doubt those pilots broke the rules which led to a terrible tragedy but anybody can be a Monday morning quarterback and criticize everything that went wrong during an accident. More needed to be done to prevent this accident than them breaking sterile cockpit in my opinion.

 

[machaf]

Sterile cockpit is a joke.

Even the last FAA inspector I had on board was chatting up a storm.

 

[buscap]

The man was not "Monday-Morning Quarterbacking".

He was testifying about the perfect world flying we all do in checkrides and line checks.

He does not deserve any criticism. I doubt very much he wanted to give or enjoyed giving the deposition.

 

[GogglesPisano]

He was under oath. And answering direct, specific questions from lawyers. Not a lot of wiggle room, there.

 

[~~~^~~~]

IMHO bringing the airport in was an undiplomatic move that brought a well armed adversary to the fight. I am surprised there is not more back room coordination amongst the defendants.

The Plaintiffs love this sort of thing because the airline and the airport will prove negligence against each other. The Plaintiff attorneys get the big BIG B I G bucks off the contingencies, while not having to do the expensive leg work of proving negligence.

 

[samballs]

For now on when I see CAPT. Scharold I will only say "Hello God"... DICK

 

[Turtlesfly]

What I can't get over is this: from the terminal to the runway which they took off on . . . it's such a short distance how could you have time to talk about anything?

I mean, you can stand on the edge of the ramp and throw a rock and hit the threshold of the runway . . . what is it about a 20-second taxi? That's really impressive if you can do all your checklists on the first flight of the day items and still have time to chat it up in one minute. I don't have that skill.

 

[captainv]

What I can't get over is this: from the terminal to the runway which they took off on . . . it's such a short distance how could you have time to talk about anything?

I mean, you can stand on the edge of the ramp and throw a rock and hit the threshold of the runway . . . what is it about a 20-second taxi? That's really impressive if you can do all your checklists on the first flight of the day items and still have time to chat it up in one minute. I don't have that skill.

If you read the transcript, you'd notice that the majority of the conversation occurred during pushback. Other than that, there were a couple of sentences about the JFK base after the taxi check. That was it.

 

[Homer Jay]

For now on when I see CAPT. Scharold I will only say "Hello God"... DICK

I couldn't agree more! That's what's wrong with this company. Too many lifer's with a God complex...

 

[CA1900]

I couldn't agree more! That's what's wrong with this company. Too many lifer's with a God complex...

Did somebody say "God Complex"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g2dkDh4ov4

 

[IronCityBlue]

Sterile cockpit is a joke.

Even the last FAA inspector I had on board was chatting up a storm.

Agreed. What other profession imposes unconditional draconian outright cencorship among its workers? Here is where the ACLU should grab a pair and make the rulemaker's lives miserable over this.

There is not one single pilot in part 121 aviation who obeys the letter of the law with regards to sterile cockpit 100% of the time. That is an indisputable fact and anyone who even attempts to disagree is an outright liar and/or an intellectual retard.

I read the transcript and as someone else mentioned, the majority of the conversation was before push back, with a small ammout during push back, and just a couple of words after that. To say that it had anything to do those few words is nothing shy of dancing on the graves of the fallen to make yourself look high and mighty.

I hope every pilot he flies with, wether he's giving line checks or just flying the line, the instant he utters merely one extraneous word while taxiing, promptly keys the mike, declares an emergency and requests CFR for the impending accident that must be just moments away, removes themselves from the trip until a new Captain is provided and refuses to fly with him again until he gets retrained.

He could have manned up and said what we all know, that the rule is adhered to in spirit most of the time, but completely unrealistic to obey in its literal sense. That would have been the truth and would have provided more insight to those outside of aviation with regards to the accident in question as well as commercial aviation in general. Instead he opted to smear the reputations of his fellow pilots as rogue rulebreakers to save his own LCA letter. Disgusting.

 

[vectorvictor]

Did somebody say "God Complex"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g2dkDh4ov4

Ironically this bit sounds alot like my first flight of the day briefing.

 

[i fly boxes]

AP) - A Comair pilot instructor said the pilots of Flight 5191 would have failed a flight test for violating rules the day the flight crashed, killing 49 people, according to court documents.

Comair Capt. Thomas Scharold testified in a deposition that the pilots violated briefing, taxi and "sterile cockpit" rules, which say pilots must maintain a distraction-free cockpit. Scharold is a line check pilot, a veteran pilot who trains other pilots.

Scharold said if he had been instructing Flight 5191's pilots - Jeff Clay and first officer James Polehinke, the sole survivor - he would not have let them take off. The pilots steered the plane onto an unlit runway too short for a commercial jet to take off in the pre-dawn hours of Aug. 27.

All Comair pilots are required to receive training from line check pilots each year and must pass flight tests, a Comair spokeswoman said.

Scharold is one of three Comair instructors whose depositions are excerpted in a court brief filed Tuesday by the airport in response to allegations made by Comair. The airline has noted that published airport diagrams that were in use the morning of the crash had mislabeled a taxiway.

Comair, based near Cincinnati in Erlanger, Ky., has filed a third-party claim against Blue Grass Airport in a lawsuit filed by relatives of one crash victim.
Dozens of other lawsuits against Comair have been filed by crash victims in state and federal courts.

Airport attorney Tom Halbleib said the instructors' testimony was consistent with evidence released by the National Transportation Safety Board showing that the pilots violated company and Federal Aviation Administration rules by talking about their families, work and other subjects while preparing for takeoff.

Comair spokeswoman Kate Marx said the deposition excerpts don't tell the whole story. "The depositions of the (instructors) were extensive, and their individual comments should not be taken out of context," she said, declining further comment.

Polehinke's lawyer also declined comment.
The NTSB is scheduled to meet next week in Washington, D.C., to issue a probable cause of the crash.

Way to support your fellow pilots, what an A$$

 

[Rally]

He was in court answering direct questions, what would you have said? Yea it was alright to be talking during the taxi we do it all the time. He probably wants to keep his job and he probably did'nt have a choice on going on the stand.

 

[SSDD]

Those of you who keep ragging on the instructor must have never given a deposition. You answer direct questions. You don't get to explain your answers.

I haven't seen the depositions but it would go something like this:

Lawyer: What is sterile cockpit?

You: Explain the concept...blah, blah, blah...

Lawyer: Did this crew violate sterile cockpit?

You: Well...kind of...

Lawyer: Is a simple question; did this crew violate sterile cockpit, yes or no?

You: Yes.

lawyer: Again, a simple yes or no. Had you been in the cockpit, giving this crew a line check, and heard those extraneous conversations, would they have failed the line check?

You: Yes.

Again, I've not seen this particular deposition, but I have been involved in a number of them.

So please cut the guy some slack.

 

[Flyer1015]

As usual, the pilots will get screwed, and the lawyers will line up their own pockets. Don't even think for a second the lawyers give a two-bit-rats-a** about the flight 5191 victims. They are in it simply for the money, and will pretend to give a crap about the victims.

Kreindler and Kreindler is every pilot's worse nightmare.

 

[pilotyip]

If the sterile cockpit is a joke, then there are going to be a lot more of these kinds of accidents. It is up to every CA and F/O to stop this chatter in the cockpit during critical flight phases. If you do not step up and call "Sterile Cockpit" you are part of the problem. Pilots who violate sterile cockpit are not professionals.

 

[geardown]

The thing that alot of you are choosing to ignore is that the rules we operate under (even if they seem stupid) are written in blood.

Someone died in order for sterile cockpit to become a FAR.

Accidents normally don't happen from one glaringly obvious thing but rather a group of small, seemingly innocent situations.

Rather than crucify or defend the IP or the crew, airport, etc. we should all simply try to be honest with ourselves and try to learn how to avoid a similar situation.

 

[PA31Driver]

If the sterile cockpit is a joke, then there are going to be a lot more of these kinds of accidents. It is up to every CA and F/O to stop this chatter in the cockpit during critical flight phases. If you do not step up and call "Sterile Cockpit" you are part of the problem. Pilots who violate sterile cockpit are not professionals.

Nevermind.

 

[WateryGrave]

If the sterile cockpit is a joke, then there are going to be a lot more of these kinds of accidents. It is up to every CA and F/O to stop this chatter in the cockpit during critical flight phases. If you do not step up and call "Sterile Cockpit" you are part of the problem. Pilots who violate sterile cockpit are not professionals.

Really?? And I suppose from the time the door closes until ten thousand feet you have never uttered a word other than a checklist item or callout right??? Right!!!!

Moron

 

[wmuflyguy]

How often do you guys talk during Sterile Cockpit during a Line-check or a LOFT?

Yes it happens in the day to day operations, but i would venture to guess during line-checks and lofts the outside chatter is minimal.

Its a rule...like it or not. If you choose to talk, you chose to break the rule (I'm not saying I have never talked below 10).

Stupid or not, the rule is on the books, and we all know if we screw up we will get nailed for it, even if it had nothing to do with what happened.

 

[doh]

For now on when I see CAPT. Scharold I will only say "Hello God"... DICK

He had no choice but to tell the truth under oath. And he had no choice but to say he would not have let them take off. I hope one day you get to walk in his shoes! You wouldn't last 5 minutes. I know him and this is not what he wanted to do. You might want to educate yourself a little on what this process is like. It ain't voluntary.:angryfire

 

[samballs]

Those of you who keep ragging on the instructor must have never given a deposition. You answer direct questions. You don't get to explain your answers.

I haven't seen the depositions but it would go something like this:

Lawyer: What is sterile cockpit?

You: Explain the concept...blah, blah, blah...

Lawyer: Did this crew violate sterile cockpit?

You: Well...kind of...

Lawyer: Is a simple question; did this crew violate sterile cockpit, yes or no?

You: Yes.

lawyer: Again, a simple yes or no. Had you been in the cockpit, giving this crew a line check, and heard those extraneous conversations, would they have failed the line check?

You: Yes.

Again, I've not seen this particular deposition, but I have been involved in a number of them.

So please cut the guy some slack.

that is where the lie is god and all the others talk non stop

 

[zawillif]

Going back to the Title of this thread. . its not just comair. I've noticed that the regionals harbor an attitude of "breaking the rules" and non-standard flying. It seems the vast majority of regional pilots half-a$$ checklists, callouts, profiles, etc. on a regular basis. Don't get me wrong I'll be the first to admit I find myself doing the same things.

When you look at Delta for example (I commute on them and ride the jumpseat frequently) you will almost NEVER see a non-standard crew. And you can be standard without being a double breasted d!ckhead also. I've met some really cool Delta guys that were all very standard. I think this might have something to do with the millitary history/culture at mainline airlines.

I'd be interested to see the regional guys newly appointed at Delta and whether or not they conform to the high standards.

 

[samballs]

He had no choice but to tell the truth under oath. And he had no choice but to say he would not have let them take off. I hope one day you get to walk in his shoes! You wouldn't last 5 minutes. I know him and this is not what he wanted to do. You might want to educate yourself a little on what this process is like. It ain't voluntary.:angryfire

His briefings while your taxing, does break the sterile cockpit or is that allowed sice its a line check? seems to me briefing during sterile breaks the rule..

 

[captainv]

you don't suppose the crew is flying standard because they have some other company's pilot on their jumpseat, do you?

Going back to the Title of this thread. . its not just comair. I've noticed that the regionals harbor an attitude of "breaking the rules" and non-standard flying. It seems the vast majority of regional pilots half-a$$ checklists, callouts, profiles, etc. on a regular basis. Don't get me wrong I'll be the first to admit I find myself doing the same things.

When you look at Delta for example (I commute on them and ride the jumpseat frequently) you will almost NEVER see a non-standard crew. And you can be standard without being a double breasted d!ckhead also. I've met some really cool Delta guys that were all very standard. I think this might have something to do with the millitary history/culture at mainline airlines.

 

[IronCityBlue]

He had no choice but to tell the truth under oath. And he had no choice but to say he would not have let them take off. I hope one day you get to walk in his shoes! You wouldn't last 5 minutes. I know him and this is not what he wanted to do. You might want to educate yourself a little on what this process is like. It ain't voluntary.:angryfire

Of course he had a choice. He could have told the TRUTH. But instead he chose to LIE to cover his own LCA letter. Is it your contention that of all the hundreds or thousands of line checks this guy has done, that if EVER even one time someone utters "nice sunset" or "dumb paint job" then BAM!!! line check failed, return to the gate, get a new crew?

What he should have said was "No, I would not have failed the crew for the extremely small ammount of post-pushback conversation that were uttered. I would have maybe held up a finger and softly said "sterile cockpit" but it would not have resulted in an on the sopt "failure" as you are trying to lead me into saying. Overall the rule is obeyed by flight crews and enforced by the FAA and their LCA represenatives, but as an experienced professional I can assure you that out of the thousands and thousands of commercial flights every day in our country, it is not normal, realistic or even psycholoically possible to even think for one moment that not one single extraneous word is uttered in any of them."

Instead he took the path that was easiest for HIM. Like I said, every pilot he flies with should promptly stop the aircraft, declare an emergency and refuse to fly with him until he gets retrained the moment he utters even a single "extra" word. I bet he would beg for mercy like a little coward "Why are you doing this? Please don't do this to me!"

I've seen LCA and Feds briefly say something below 10 many, many times, and most of you in the 121 world have too. This is not about safety or professionalisim. This is about liability. 99.99% of all part 121 flights have sterile cockpit "violations" by its strictest definition on their CVR's, and that includes when Feds and LCA's are in the J/S.

As far as safety and professionalisim, its a matter of degree and we all know it. Jamming on your iPod while the other pilot is chatting it up on their cell phone while recieving a hold short clearance? Unsafe and unprofessional. Two pilots heads up and paying attention, but one quickly utters "nice sunset"...perfectly safe, professional and normal.

I'm sure like many rules we have this one as someone said "because of the blood of others" but that is not what this discussion is about. This is about falesly pinning causes and liability on pilots, period. Since almost every flight's CVR will have at least some small ammount of sterile cockpit "violations" in it, anything whatsoever that happens can at least be partially "blamed" on the flight crew.

That's what this whole thing is about. Nothing more, nothing less. That "instructor" had an opportunity to set the record straight and he chose to make himself look good instead, while stepping over the graves of the fallen in the process.

 

[pilotyip]

Watery, here is the way I handle sterile cockpit, someone starts a conversation that breaks the rule. I state, "Why don't you hold that thought and we can pick it up in cruise" If they persist in talking I will then call "Lets observe sterile cockpit" Yes I may have from time to time have broken sterile cockpit, but because it is almost impossible to be perfect. But to ignore this rule which is meant to prevent accidents is not the mark of a professional pilot.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Just shut the F up until the AP has things well under control and you've rung for a beverage. imp: