Infighting amongst pilots and pilot groups

[shon7]

This is more of a philosophical post.

With all this infighting amongst pilots -- management has taken, and continues to take, advantage -- and the pilots are the ones who pay the price. (The new Netjets payscale is just further proof of the same).

So my question is:

- Will there ever be a time when pilots come together as ONE and take action that benefits ALL pilots
- What are the conditions necessary to make such a feeling of togetherness (i.e. we are ALL in this together) possible


If things continue the way they are I can see pilot jobs being outsourced - not to regionals but to actual foreign pilots -- within a period of ten years. Is that what it will take before PILOTS come together as ONE.

 

[tranceport]

will there ever be a time when 'we' come together as one?

depends how you define that. currently, the overwhelming majority of the largest carriers already fall under one union. now this fact has been around for a number of years and you can easily see how well this unity has worked.

so when you mean 'come together', do you mean sleeping in the same hotel room each nite?

'what are the conditions necessary' for this to happen?

uhm, perhaps an AA pilot or Southwest pilot can answer this question since they are the two of the largest pilots groups not under the same union. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a different union already at American representing some of it's pilots besides APA?

there is already an umbrella organization to cover most all pilot groups, someone help me on this...isn't it 'CALPA' or something like that?

In general, I don't think Southwest wants anything to do with ALPA.

Even if everyone was under one Union, I can easily see how the selfishness of pilots and the beaurocratic nature of a union organization would still manage to cancel out any unity. Even with unity, the government would step in and squash it anyway, ala Clinton and the AA flight attendants a number of years ago.

all i can say is: the quality of life in the industry is going down so much that if you were to cry 'unity' you'd be like someone on the deck of the Titanic yelling to everyone to remain calm...no one would really listen anyway.

love,
your fellow 'i got mine' pilot

 

[climbhappy]

shon7,
you're blindly assuming that all of the economic pursuits of individuals could somehow be harnessed and unified. getting two people to agree on one thing is hard enough.
when you say MGT has taken advantage of pilots, you fail to consider many of the external factors and the change of the modern airline business model that works. Legacy carriers and their bloated fleet structures and routes don't cut it. When collectively they have lost over 10 billion the last two to three years, does that imply being taken advantage of.

As far as coming together, the only way it could ever be possible would be with govt oversight. New FAA regs would have to require minimum standards to occupy left or right seat and for hiring. Until one is not allowed to go out and buy a job, this won't stop. But hey, don't we live in a free market system?

The NFL player's association would be the thing i could compare a unified body to. minimum wage for each seat based on the number of seats.
How would we ever get Boards of directors to agree to that.

As far the Netjets contract, with the recession and the whole fractional selling point being a scam, in my view, (owners found their share values plummetted with recession and they couldn't get out of these contracts)
the pilots got all they're going to get. Somehow the pilots thought they were vital enough to make it work.

You may not have noticed Robert Crandell and Donald Burr's new company called "POGO" Critical mass will be 70 new Adams 700 light jets. pilots will make between 35k and 65K according to a Forbes magazine article. THAT'S THE CEILING! Will it work? Don't know.
I did ask a first class passenger recently would she want to fly up nortrh in the winter with a guy who is 23, has acne, and just climbed out of a C-172.
She said "NO"

 

[miles otoole]

I did ask a first class passenger recently would she want to fly up nortrh in the winter with a guy who is 23, has acne, and just climbed out of a C-172.
She said "NO"

So there you have it- unbiased research at its finest. What if, unknown to you, this ladies' son was 23, pimple faced, a 172 CFI who was taught by her and she responded-YES? Besides, there will be plenty of 5000+ hour pilots in the future ready to jump all over 65K a year when they realize that having a 60 hour a week/65K a year desk job actually sucks.
The fractional industry actually forecasts more growth going forward. As security hassles become greater and more and more RJs becoming common place, potential jet owners will appear. While yes, certain aircraft dropped in value precipitously over the term of a fractional contract, few owners felt "scammed" as you put it. Most offered aircraft for sale are fairly stable price wise and in a few cases, new aircraft are appreciating.
As far as coming together as a group, I just don't see WN, JetBlue, et al., supporting a strike of some other failing companies' pilot group. "Hey, I make well over 200K a year. Why would I want to put that in jeopardy? I feel for ya brother, but the last thing I want to do is make our labor/management relationship contentious. I have a family to feed after all." As long as there is at least 1% of the labor force is making "dream wages", the dream will be kept alive for MANY. Reminds me of kids on the playground dreaming of NBA or NFL fame and riches. And remember, desk jobs suck. BTW, management unfortunately knows this.

 

[climbhappy]

more unbiased research for ya miles

quote: "few owners felt scammed as you put it."

Miles,
that sounds like more unbiased research at its finest. Actually ,i spend my off days talking to turboprop owners all over the country. as a consultant for a GA company, I do take the pulse of the market in a manner of speaking.

what did base your conclusion on? Many have not reupped and the result is Netjets is now offering Block time with no strings. all the others have followed. the market is changing. Bob Crandall thinks there's a market for the Adams. Some forecast a demand of 4000 units while others are at 400.
the problem with stock market soothsayers as well as aircraft prognosticators,
there's no crystal ball. If you look at Citation shares 25 hr block card for $83,000.00, tell where the bargain is. there's a decent slotation on every corner of any big MSA.

Some of your points I agreed with. As for the 23 year old, the reality is, most baby boomers who have sizeable net worths' won't just hop in a small jet with a young wonder pilot no matter if he's got Chuck Yeager's DNA.

It is perception. and perception is reality!

 

[BigMotorToter]

Here's two things that must be done:

1. National seniority list

2. Re-regulation of the industry.

Until then, the incentive to advance on someone else's back is to great, i.e. airlines going out of business, therefore pilots advacing in seat and pay due to quick growth, or unions selling out founding father airlines (or any other smaller pilot group for that matter) for the gain of another airlines (greater) potential membership, (ALPA/APA).

 

[miles otoole]

Frax unbiased marketing info

Quote: "that sounds like more unbiased research at its finest. Actually ,i spend my off days talking to turboprop owners all over the country. as a consultant for a GA company, I do take the pulse of the market in a manner of speaking.

what did base your conclusion on? Many have not reupped"

Climbhappy:
I based my info partially on personally knowing 3 frax owners (2 FlOps and 1 NJ) as well as on a professional 5 year owner study by an independent organization. While consulting for a GA company might give you a certain perspective from a micro level, you must be careful to not bias your preconceived notions. The following is from one study:

http://www.ainonline.com/issues/09_03/09_03_aircraftsharep40.html

A substantial majority of fractional aircraft share owners indicated that they are satisfied with their current program. According to the latest Fractional Aircraft Ownership Experience Study, conducted for the fifth year by Aviation Research Group/US of Cincinnati, 92 percent of fractional aircraft customers are satisfied with their current program and program provider.

The study also found that 80 percent of respondents would renew with their current program (although that was a decrease from last year’s 87 percent), and the most frequently purchased share size is 1/16th (39 percent) with a one-eighth-share size the second most selected (35 percent).

While approximately 98 percent of owners with NetJets and Flight Options were satisfied, Flexjet received a satisfaction rating of 80 percent. The likelihood owners would renew contracts scored 70 percent for Flexjet, and 90 and 83 percent, respectively, for NetJets and Flight Options.

Regardless of how owner opinions evolve, ARG/US said, it is clear that there is a “compelling demand” for this type of transportation. “The continued need for fractional aircraft ownership is evidence that this industry can thrive during challenging economic periods, as well as boom times.”

 

[flx757]

Here's two things that must be done:

1. National seniority list

2. Re-regulation of the industry.

Without discussing the merits of either of these items, I will say the likelihood of either of these coming to pass is virtually zero.

 

[climbhappy]

Good point Miles!

a strong case made. my data came from personal contacts and some leading business pub articles. yours sounds better anyway. I agree that there is compelling demand. Why would Bob Crandall and Burr put up 8 million of their money and are looking for 20 million to start POGO.

With ATA in trouble, one thing is clear. One would have to think that a consolidation in the airline industry is around the corner. only then would there be any wage stabilization.

 

[Gofish]

I dunno...I'm going to walk the picket line with some mainline guys and girls in a couple of days.

There is no room for hate anymore. Hurling insults at one another is childish. It is almost like apes slinging feces at each other.

GET Involved!

 

[pilotyip]

Reregualtion = higher costs = fewer passengers = fewer airplanes = fewer pilots. Some will make it with "good ole days" working rules and wages, most will find another way to make a living.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

schon7- excellent point on foreign action on the next 5-10 years. In 2007-2009 there will be some growth and increase in payrates. But like a B rated horror movie the big breasted blonde (pilots) will have thought she has gotten away only to have the scary monster pop out of nowhere and freak us out. That scary monster is globalization.

The only way we are going to be effective is if we are all under one pilot representation group... nationally and INTERNATIONALLY. It doesn't have to be ALPA, but we have got to get together as one.

Indentured pilots are alive and well and they are coming to America.

The only way the SWAPA and APA guys are going to come to ALPA is when the pain of remaining as the thier own is greater than changing.

A proactive move? I suggest that the sooner the APA and SWAPA become one with ALPA the better. I think ALPA should be open to changing its name too. A blend into a brand new organization for all.......

 

[canyonblue]

In general, I don't think Southwest wants anything to do with ALPA.

In the '70's, the Southwest pilots were looking to organize, and approached ALPA. ALPA wasn't interested in representing a little airline from Texas and said no. The Southwest pilots then decided to go it on their own and copied the AA pilots APA Union. We have in the past, and will continue in the future to use ALPA as a resource. But to see ALPA at SWA, it would have to get pretty ugly here. (Not to mention we only pay 1% dues, CA & FO)

 

[mnboyev]

Ours dues are pretty high.. 260 per month. Internal union under the 'umbrella' of CAPA. About 2.5%. (currently under contract talks) so maybe it is inflated due to increased legal fees.??

The transport workers of NYC had more solidarity than pilots as a whole do... Too competetive... One pilots plight is another pilots gain.. very sad indeed.

You have to squeak to get what is fair .. but if you squeak too much.. the dam wheels fall off.. very frustrating indeed.
.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

As far as coming together as a group, I just don't see WN, JetBlue, et al., supporting a strike of some other failing companies' pilot group. "Hey, I make well over 200K a year. Why would I want to put that in jeopardy? I feel for ya brother, but the last thing I want to do is make our labor/management relationship contentious. I have a family to feed after all." As long as there is at least 1% of the labor force is making "dream wages", the dream will be kept alive for MANY.

I don't think any ALPA carrier would do a supporting strike for another ALPA carrier in this new era. The rules in place, the RLA and conservative judges/politics, make that a no go.

Why do you think they would?


Each pilot group's MECs/LECs is where the representation works with the company. ALPA national only sends out newletters and lobbies Congress with the "strength of their membership" behind their effort. I don't devalue that, but an umbrella organization would do the same thing.

Old time FedEx folks chime in. You went from ALPA, to FPA, now back to ALPA. Why did you that and what is the benefit of being ALPA again? I think it has to do with pilots trusting pilots. FPA was thought to be in bed with management.

The national seniority list and reregulation hopes are a different animal. It would be nice, but there is no way we could put the genie back in the bottle.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

The only way the SWAPA and APA guys are going to come to ALPA is when the pain of remaining as the thier own is greater than changing.

What would cause pain and how would ALPA realistically "help" by replacing an inhouse union?

No sarcasm. I don't know.

 

[Occam's Razor]

"- Will there ever be a time when pilots come together as ONE and take action that benefits ALL pilots"

I hope not!

"- What are the conditions necessary to make such a feeling of togetherness (i.e. we are ALL in this together) possible"

Something cataclysmic, either regulatory or legislative. A rule or law requiring all pilots to wear electro-shock butt-plugs to ensure alertness might do it.

On second thought...who do I write to set that up?

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I think airlines are at what I call perfect capacity right now. However, this moment will not exist very long as airlines keep adding capacity. More capacity = lower fares = higher gas prices = more low paying jobs = death of this profession. If you don't think the Southwest effect killed this career, you're mistaken. Watch over the next few years as SWA competes with itself into oblivion. The airline business is such a volatile entity that any small action pushes it over the edge. $10 dollars per fare is the difference between a few million in profit to a billion dollar loss. That volatility is hedged against our salaries, that's why we are losing.

 

[Flopgut]

ALPA should change, become a guild, craft or something like that. Cozy up to the term "skilled labor". Think about it: MDs, Dentists etc. may or may not get paid. You want the plumber or electrician to show up? You're going to pay, ain't no slimey HMO/INS run around. ALPA should have it's own fringe benefits eventually. Re-reg is an unfortunate stretch, a national air transportation policy would work well in it's place. (Where are we going? All LCC and mega low fares? Do we want a worldwide US aviation presence? OF COURSE!) We need to emphasize a return of respect for workers. The Constitution says "We the people...", not: "We the multinational corporations....". Right now is an excellent time to do that. Our profession has been rolled back 30 years and our morally BK managements are starting to feed at the trough again.

 

[Morning Wood]

All I have ever heard is that your union is only as good as your MEC/LEC. If there is ever such a thing as national seniority list, then what good is your MEC/LEC going to be? All this is going to do is make ALPA National a bigger entity.

 

[canyonblue]

If you don't think the Southwest effect killed this career, you're mistaken.

No the government did. By not letting this debacle play out as it should have, we are still left with way too many airlines. They let PanAm and Eastern go, but stepped in and saved the day for the many airlines that spent money like drunken sailors, and wound up with more debt than a third world country. Then when the economy tanked they rolled up their bags from the underpass and went to the government for some cheese. If you knew anything about air travel history, Southwest went after the 80% of Americans, who in 1971 could not afford to fly. This created a wave of air travel, and soon the Majors decided they wanted in too. Suddenly those 80% looked better and better as they realized way too late that it was an untapped market.

With more Americans traveling it created more pilot jobs, but with lower fares came lower salaries. We could go back to a regulated industry and charge $800 for travel between ATL-MIA, but who could afford to fly? If this scenario had played out then "YourPilotFriend" would not have been hired as a pilot, and would be working as a Landscaper. And he would be complaining that his family had to drive to Florida because it would cost $3,200 for the family to fly.