Industry $tandards

[SoundBarViolatr]

When I was first ushered into this industry I was taught that you never cross the picket line and work below industry standards because it ruins the industry for all the professional pilots. I have followed this religiously throughout my career but it seems as though it has done nothing but give the opportunity to someone else that eagerly grabs the chance to make some extra money or build some experience in a jet! a few weks ago I lost a 30 day contract (lots of $ for me) because I asked for $50 more a day to meet the MINIMUM industry contract. Of course, someone gladly took the mission from me.

So what is going with upkeeping standards in this industry? Am I behind times for trying to uphold this value?? Inputs please. Thanks.

 

[CA1900]

No, you're not behind the times. However, in my experience, the customer usually gets what he pays for. A professional who won't work for peanuts usually does so because he has skills and experience that are valuable. More often than not, the type who won't spend an extra few hundred for an experienced pilot aren't worth the hassle, honestly.

I've run into this from all the way back to flight instruction days. I lost one student because she was absolutely insistent that I not charge her for ground briefings and ground instruction, "because [her] husband was working on his CFI." I told her I wouldn't brief for free, and I wouldn't fly without adequate briefings for obvious reasons. She ended up going to the guy who'd only charge for his time on the hobbs. Long story short, she went on to fail her FAA oral exam with flying colors.

Spending millions on a jet and then bargain-hunting for the crew to fly it is stupid, stupid, stupid. One would think they would want an experienced pilot, not one who'll low-ball to build experience. The operator deserves what he gets, IMO.

 

[sleepy]

Labor is a comodity. People will shop around until they find the best price on just about anything, even wealthy people that can afford to pay more.

 

[pilotyip]

There is limit to the lower end and it is being seen in the entry level of the business. All entry-level operators are finding it difficult to find anyone to work for them. They have redefined competitive hiring minimums to regulatory limits Comm/MEL./Inst. with no flight time requirements. However if you want to stay in the industry take the job, and then start looking for the next one. An employer who sees a lot of turnover and the expense of replacing crewmembers pay find that paying more is cheaper than training costs.

 

[Shag McNasty]

When I was first ushered into this industry I was taught that you never cross the picket line and work below industry standards because it ruins the industry for all the professional pilots. I have followed this religiously throughout my career but it seems as though it has done nothing but give the opportunity to someone else that eagerly grabs the chance to make some extra money or build some experience in a jet! a few weks ago I lost a 30 day contract (lots of $ for me) because I asked for $50 more a day to meet the MINIMUM industry contract. Of course, someone gladly took the mission from me.

So what is going with upkeeping standards in this industry? Am I behind times for trying to uphold this value?? Inputs please. Thanks.

It's hard to compete with a FlightSafety/Simuflite/CAE instructor who's just looking to pad his regular income.

 

[Mercury]

Sorry Yip , I disagree with that mentality.

Edited: I had a huge response typed about about two-bit operators, training contracts, brown bag lunches etc, but I think I should just leave it at this:

My best advice is some that my grandfather instilled in me long ago, You only get treated the way you let others treat you! (rip gramps)

 

[pilotyip]

If you have the option of having someone else feed you while waiting for industry standards, then by all means wait for industry standards. But if like most of us while between jobs, you take what is offered. It puts food on the table.

 

[Spooky 2]

When I was first ushered into this industry I was taught that you never cross the picket line and work below industry standards because it ruins the industry for all the professional pilots. I have followed this religiously throughout my career but it seems as though it has done nothing but give the opportunity to someone else that eagerly grabs the chance to make some extra money or build some experience in a jet! a few weks ago I lost a 30 day contract (lots of $ for me) because I asked for $50 more a day to meet the MINIMUM industry contract. Of course, someone gladly took the mission from me.

So what is going with upkeeping standards in this industry? Am I behind times for trying to uphold this value?? Inputs please. Thanks.

The biggest problem is defining what industry standard is? Maybe $1200 a day is the "standard" for a GV per-diem pilot but after you have sucessfuly charged, say $1500 a day for this service, does that make it the new standard. I'm clueless. We pay our per-diem pilots very well considering the aircraft in question, and it includes 100% paid for recurrent every six months along with a daily rate while in training. Does this establish the new standard? I doubt it because there are lots of pilots who will work for less given the chance.

Still clueless!

 

[ultrarunner]

No, you're not behind the times. However, in my experience, the customer usually gets what he pays for.

A difference in 50 bucks a day is hardly significanly undercutting an industry standard.

As a side note, I have begun negotiating "X" number of days of a contract pilot availability in my training contracts with training vendors in order to more closely control this cost while at the same time getting quality persons.

 

[ultrarunner]

The biggest problem is defining what industry standard is? Maybe $1200 a day is the "standard" for a GV per-diem pilot but after you have sucessfuly charged, say $1500 a day for this service, does that make it the new standard. I'm clueless.

No Spooky, you hit it right on the mark. Until such time that a company like the Stanton Group actually BENCHMARKS contract pilot positions and the contractual rates for such, the rates those are getting and simply posting on the internet hardly qualify as "industry standard" as much as those persons would like to think.

Just as salaried rates vary from town to town, region to region, etc...so do that of contract rates. The big difference being that the contract body will travel most anywhere for the gig, and as such, the contract body living in redneckville, usa might charge slightly less than the contract body living in Westchester, NY. Supply and demand. And as I said in a previous post, someone charging 50 bucks less, imo, is hardly whoreing themselves out....but then again, no one bothered to post what that rate was and the aircraft type. It's all relative.

 

[doublepsych]

Add this to the list...

I personally know a guy who was working at a regional airline, and got a job offer (G IV) from one of the larger charter operators. With little to no applicable experience the pay was, shall I say, a bit on the low side. All good, I can see paying the dude what he was worth as an inexperienced GIV copilot. Except dude then had to go to school on the airplane, and BUY THE TYPE HIMSELF. Which he did. So now he is making about 40 to 50% below average, and he bought his own rating...

This is exactly the crack in the dam that started the flood that has washed away the lower half of the decent airline jobs in the last 10 to 15 years. The short term "me" analysis. It is absolutely retarded behavior.

Another guy I know, currently employed by a legacy carrier as a widebody F/O, up and buys his own G IV type to do a little contracting... I haven't even asked what kind of rate he'll be looking for, but I'm guessing lowball...

I, and likely many others, have had to exercise a great deal of patience to connect the dots for a decent position, and I hate to see goons of this type flushing that opportunity for others in the future.

Maybe this is more common out there than I actually thought, I just hate to think of where it is all going to lead.

 

[falconpilot]

Personally in my opinion... Anyone who goes out and buys their own type, especially what it cost for a GIV, is just shooting themselves in the foot.. Its not worth it. Especially if you are just contracting..

 

[Shag McNasty]

No Spooky, you hit it right on the mark. Until such time that a company like the Stanton Group actually BENCHMARKS contract pilot positions and the contractual rates for such, the rates those are getting and simply posting on the internet hardly qualify as "industry standard" as much as those persons would like to think.

Just as salaried rates vary from town to town, region to region, etc...so do that of contract rates. The big difference being that the contract body will travel most anywhere for the gig, and as such, the contract body living in redneckville, usa might charge slightly less than the contract body living in Westchester, NY. Supply and demand. And as I said in a previous post, someone charging 50 bucks less, imo, is hardly whoreing themselves out....but then again, no one bothered to post what that rate was and the aircraft type. It's all relative.

Good point. Don't forget about the Canadian pilots getting paid in US dollars. $800 US equals about $920 CA. "It's all relative".

 

[TXGold]

And $920 CA only spends like about $500 US in Canada.

I worked with a GIV Captain on a 1 1/2 month contract in Venezuela. About a week into the contract we had established a great repore. He was a great guy, and being that he was a total geezer his skills were less than they probably were ten years prior. We were talking by the pool one day about what each other was charging. Clearly being the FO(typed), I told him I was hoping to get close to $650 a day. He had already agreed to $450 a day. I was taken back. I ended up getting what I wanted. We had a great time, and I enjoyed the friendship we developed. However, it is hard believing there are people out there like him. BTW he was a ex-FS instructor.

 

[Spooky 2]

Personally in my opinion... Anyone who goes out and buys their own type, especially what it cost for a GIV, is just shooting themselves in the foot.. Its not worth it. Especially if you are just contracting..

While I might not suggest this course of action to everyone, there are occasions where this has worked quite well in the recent past. I know three pilots who basically got there check books out and paid for GV and GEX ratings. All three are doing quite well. One has a full time position with a large management company and the other two are very busy with pure contract positions and both have been offered full time positions but declined simply becasue they were looking for something better. I need to add that all of these pilots got significant discounts on their training through the management company they work for.

 

[EngineThunder]

In addition to the short term "me" analysis that doublepsych mentions, the sense of entitlement that some people have in this industry is unbelievable.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Labor is a comodity. People will shop around until they find the best price on just about anything, even wealthy people that can afford to pay more.

Any person worth their salt knows that labor is prior to, and independent of, captial. Captial is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of captial, and deserves much higher consideration.

 

[SoundBarViolatr]

How low can you go?

A difference in 50 bucks a day is hardly significanly undercutting an industry standard.

As a side note, I have begun negotiating "X" number of days of a contract pilot availability in my training contracts with training vendors in order to more closely control this cost while at the same time getting quality persons.

$50 a day may not be much but quickly adds up for a 30+ day contract. And it was to MEET the LOWEST END of $tandards exercised by contract pilots for the type aicraft. Although I have not seen anything officially "published", the rate seemed to be universaly recognized and acknowledged by majority of pilots and companies for this type aircraft across the nation.

 

[SoundBarViolatr]

Sooooo is it safe to assume that so called industry standards are merely LOOSE guidelines? No one seems to sound off in a firm matter. I would like to know before I loose another opportunity to make $$$!

SBV

 

[GVFlyer]

Any person worth their salt knows that labor is prior to, and independent of, captial. Captial is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of captial, and deserves much higher consideration.

I hadn't seen this view since we read The Labor Theory of Value in College.

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]The Labor Theory of Value is a major pillar of traditional Marxian economics, which is espoused in Marx's principal work, Capital (1867). His basic claim is simple: the value of a commodity can be objectively measured by the average amount of labor hours that are required to produce that commodity.[/SIZE][/FONT]

This is the way Marx said it in Wage Labour and Capital 1847.

"Capital can multiply itself only by exchanging itself for labor-power, by calling wage-labor into life. The labor-power of the wage-laborer can exchange itself for capital only by increasing capital, by strengthening that very power whose slave it is. Increase of capital, therefore, is increase of the proletariat, i.e., of the working class.

Capital perishes if it does not exploit labor-power, which, in order to exploit, it must buy. The more quickly the capital destined for production – the productive capital – increases, the more prosperous industry is, the more the bourgeoisie enriches itself, the better business gets, so many more workers does the capitalist need, so much the dearer does the worker sell himself."



GV