Importance of PIC time?

[avbug]

That's crap... The whole PIC requirement is absurd given that at least our airline system is all strict seniority based...It's a flawed logic as it doesn't look at the overall picture.

It's not "crap." What you lack are the basic qualifications, and that's exactly what's been said here; you need to hold the basic qualifications in order to upgrade. Period. I believe I said that in a post above.

Upgrade is based upon seniority, dependent upon being qualified to upgrade. Merely being in the seat doesn't necessarily mean you're able, as you've shown in your post. You're angry, justifiably so...you saw what you thought was the brass ring, you grabbed it, and you discovered avaition where the only constant is change. The problem was that when you grabbed the ring, you lacked the qualifications...you ran before you could walk, and now you're angry about not having enough walking experience.

Perhaps more significant is that you feel going somewhere else to gain PIC experience is a step backward. That's unfortunate. One mans ceiling is another man's floor, some say. I see people daily who can't afford to eat, many who live in tents in the desert and carry water for miles in goatskin bags, and whom will never have a small percentage of what you have or be where you are...your ceiling is already much higher than theirs.

You're not the only pilot unable to move up because of lack of qualification, change in circumstance, or hollow promise. It's rife in the industry. The best defense against that, if there is such a thing, is to seek out as much qualification as you can get...in the context of this thread, that means getting as much PIC experience as you can in aircraft appropriate to what you seek. If you seek a turbine position, then turbine PIC...if you seek a multi turbine position then multi turbine PIC. You get the picture.

I'm sorry to hear of your circumstance. It's not uncommon. Many of us have been there. Job security in this business was always an illousion...some are having an uncomfortable night as they wake up to that fact in this modern day and age. Best of luck.

 

[Freight Dog]

It's not "crap." What you lack are the basic qualifications, and that's exactly what's been said here; you need to hold the basic qualifications in order to upgrade. Period. I believe I said that in a post above.

What basic qualifications are those? In my previous Part 121 job, I passed the captain written, oral, sim check, IOE and the FAA observation ride, flew as a bid line captain. Sure, I had to meet the basic qualifications to upgrade, and that was ATP mins plus time in type, both of which I substantially exceeded at my upgrade time.

Let's define "being qualified to upgrade." Do you call your date of hire a qualification? I don't. If my airline was to get 10 more planes, according to your explanation, I'd all of a sudden be qualified as my DOH would be able to hold captain. Same drill as before... written, oral, sim check, IOE, line flying, basically the stuff you get when your seniority allows it.

Once you're past your ATP and your first airline type rating, it has nothing to do with qualifications, it has to do with seniority. Basing something on flight hours alone beyond that point without looking at the complete picture is rather shallow. You can't tell me that a pilot who hasn't flown anything bigger than a Caravan or a Beech 99 is better qualified than another pilot with thousands of hours in type (say 737) who hasn't been able to upgrade in their current position because of their seniority and/or the financial condition of their company.

I will agree with you that PIC time is very important. I do however disagree with the basing things strictly off of flight times without looking at the overall picture.

 

[avbug]

I do however disagree with the basing things strictly off of flight times without looking at the overall picture.

I said no such thing. In fact, if you will take the time to read, you''ll find I cited a number of criteria that different companies use for determining upgrade. Personally, I find flight time meaningless...I couldn't care how much time you have, but I certainly care how you fly. For the most part, airlines are more interested in your seniority than how well you fly. What you or I think, however, is irrelevant and meaningless.

If my airline was to get 10 more planes, according to your explanation, I'd all of a sudden be qualified as my DOH would be able to hold captain.

I said nothing remotely like that. It's not your flight experience that's lacking so much as your reading comprehension skills.

You're whining that you don't have the PIC experience to be considered for upgrade, and I told you that you can't expect to move up the rungs unless you have that experience. If your employer sets minimums and you don't meet them, what can be said? You're not the first to have to go get more experience.

Let's define "being qualified to upgrade."

As I stated before, that really depends on the operator. You are the one telling us you need to go get more PIC experience in order to hire on with other companies, and complaining that you lack the experience to upgrade, and then complaining that operators require the experience. Simple...either get qualified, or find someone else to work for. Qualified to upgrade is whatever your employer determines it to be.

What basic qualifications are those? In my previous Part 121 job, I passed the captain written, oral, sim check, IOE and the FAA observation ride, flew as a bid line captain. Sure, I had to meet the basic qualifications to upgrade, and that was ATP mins plus time in type, both of which I substantially exceeded at my upgrade time.

Which is all really quite meaningless as you no longer fly that type, or work for that company. You met the qualifications for that company, in that aircraft. Do you think the rest of the world owes you a living based on your past laurels?

You've stipulated that in order to get anywhere, you're going to need to take a pay cut (also irrelevant, but thanks for including it) and return to a place where you can increase your PIC experience...you've shown that you lack the PIC experience to move up in the world to where ever it may be that you wish to be. With this in mind, you've set the ground rules...you lack experience, you need experience, you know what you need to do, and you thinnk it's "crap." Tough. You meet the requirements, or you don't. If you don't, you can whine about it, or go get qualified.

You can't tell me that a pilot who hasn't flown anything bigger than a Caravan or a Beech 99 is better qualified than another pilot with thousands of hours in type (say 737) who hasn't been able to upgrade in their current position because of their seniority and/or the financial condition of their company.

I told you no such thing. You told us. You told us you can't upgrade where you are (for whatever reason...which is also irrelevant), and can't make it where you want to be hired because you lack their qualifications. You told us that. Base on what you have told us, if you lack the qualifications, go get them. Or buy the company and change them. Which do you prefer?

 

[Freight Dog]

OK, so much wasted bandwidth there avbug.

I'm not looking to leave anywhere, but here is my basic argument:

Take a guy who has 1,300 hours PIC in a Beech 99, no type ratings, zero jet time, zero Part 121 experience. That person meets the hiring requirements of SWA or Alaska for example to sling gear in a 737 for 5-10 years or whatever the upgrade time goes for at those airlines.

Take another guy who has 600 hours of turbine PIC flying Part 121, several type ratings, a couple thousand hours in the right seat of a 737 flown under the same rules as Alaska or SWA. This guy is *NOT* qualified.

I call that shallow.

 

[AerroMatt]

I'm not looking to leave anywhere, but here is my basic argument:

Take a guy who has 1,300 hours PIC in a Beech 99, no type ratings, zero jet time, zero Part 121 experience. That person meets the hiring requirements of SWA or Alaska for example to sling gear in a 737 for 5-10 years or whatever the upgrade time goes for at those airlines.

Take another guy who has 600 hours of turbine PIC flying Part 121, several type ratings, a couple thousand hours in the right seat of a 737 flown under the same rules as Alaska or SWA. This guy is *NOT* qualified.

I call that shallow.

This post just proves my point. PIC time means more than all the rest of the experience combined. This is not shallow, this means proving oneself. The B99 driver in your example has shown he can survive alone in all the inconceivable combinations of bad weather/ATC screwups/maintenance problems that can come along in those 1300 hours. The guy whose swinging gear for a couple thousand hours and has 600 PIC hasn't proven anything except that he can get along with his captains.

Right, wrong, or indiferrent, this is the way this business is and how its always been.

 

[Vspeeds]

PIC Times!

"Take a guy who has 1,300 hours PIC in a Beech 99"

Has a Beech 99 guy ever got hired on at SWA or Alaska?

 

[avbug]

It can't be too much of a waste of bandwidth, can it now, mate? After all, I'm just quoting YOU.

Let's do it some more...

...instead of grinding it out for 1500 hours in the left seat of a DHC-8, I chose to come fly a 737 ... Well, things changed, and I'm stuck in the right seat for years and years to come. I don't think I'll see the left seat here for at least another 8 years or so and I'm in my 5th year...despite 2000+ hours in a 737, I can't apply to SWA or Alaska for that matter because I didn't grind out a few hundred more hours in the left seat of a DHC-8. On the other hand, a guy flying a Beech 99 at Ameriflight or Alpine can meet the mins.

The guy coming from Ameriflight or Alpine can meat the minimums because he holds the qualifications, you see. He has the Pilot in Command experience that you do not. You see this as unfair exactly how?

Minimums are minimm experience levels...which is why they're called minimums. See the connection, there?

You say "because I didn't grind out a few hundred more hours" and therefore clearly show that you elected to forego obtaining the necessary pilot in command time--you gave up obtaining the qualification--to grab the brass ring and get in the B737. You've got the ring. You made your choice. Perhaps the Oracle had it right...now you need to understand that choice.

You can go get more PIC time if you feel the need, but you telll us you don't feel the need. So why lament? Why complain that you can't apply elsewhere (because you're not qualified), when you don't want to apply elsewhere?

I'm not looking to leave anywhere,

No, you're not looking to "leave anywhere," though you tell us you feel stuck in a position that requires thirteen years to upgrade in a B737. Are you therefore not looing because you're stuck?

Sort of bears out the point that one should seek as much experience as PIC as possible...because of course employers want to see PIC experience...no firm worth their salt intentionally hires a SIC to stay a SIC. Companies hire PIC's into SIC positions, with the full intent of getting the most bang for their buck by upgrading them to captain positions. PIC experience is most valueable, SIC experience is borderline valueless...because it's command experience that an employer wants to see. SIC time is only marking time until you can uprgrade and be more than captain's helper.

In the 121 world and in places where crews change off regularly, duties from one seat to the other are very similiar, but the bottom line is that a prospective employer wants to see experience showing that the applicant has signed for the airplane, and has been responsible for the airplane, and this time is called PIC. Gotta have it, and your comments clearly show it.

Take a guy who has 1,300 hours PIC in a Beech 99, no type ratings, zero jet time, zero Part 121 experience. That person meets the hiring requirements of SWA or Alaska for example to sling gear in a 737 for 5-10 years or whatever the upgrade time goes for at those airlines.

Take another guy who has 600 hours of turbine PIC flying Part 121, several type ratings, a couple thousand hours in the right seat of a 737 flown under the same rules as Alaska or SWA. This guy is *NOT* qualified.

I call that shallow.

You call it what you want, but the companies that do the hiring call it "unqualified." You see, bottom line, one pilot has 1,300 hours of PIC, and the other has half of that. If the minimums are a thousand hours of PIC...then the 600 hour pilot falls four hundred hours short, and the 1,300 hour pilot is three hundred hours to the good. You can call it "shallow" all you like, but whining about it won't get you hired, whereas obtaining the necessary qualifications will.

What about this...go do some flying on the side, seeing as you have thirteen years of waiting for that upgrade to do, and in short order you'll have the necessary qualifications as PIC to meet the hiring reqirements.

Remember that by definition, minimums are the bottom rung of what is required. No regulation or policy has been created that says you can't exceed those numbers.

While you chew on that, reflect on the fact that helicopter pilots often have many hours they can't count, as it's in another category and class...even if it's multi engine turbine PIC. Many of these companies don't count single engine time as anything but single engine, even if it's turbine PIC. How about this one...my time in four engine large radial powered piston bombers is counted by most firms in the came category as a Cessna 310, even though it's a night and day difference. Who cares? Bottom line is that a company establishes a policy, and you either meet the criteria, or you don't. If you don't, and you want the job, it's very simple. Find a way to meet the criteria, or move on!!

 

[pilotyip]

Buddy of mine, ex USAir, 10,000K SIC in DC-9 and B-737, typed in DC-9 and B-737, but only 500 PIC in a King Air that he had when hired in 1989 by US Air. When laid of fin 2001, he could not interview with any of the places he wanted to go to because he did not have the 1000 PIC time

 

[Freight Dog]

pilotyip, that's too bad for your friend. But as avbug says... he's not qualified. Also, as AeroMatt says, he's only proven he can get along with his captains.

According to these geniuses, he should have foreseen his furlough and resigned from a six figure flying job to fly boxes in some beat up BE99 for 25k to gain that valuable turbine PIC experience.

 

[avbug]

According to these geniuses, he should have foreseen his furlough and resigned from a six figure flying job to fly boxes in some beat up BE99 for 25k to gain that valuable turbine PIC experience.

I said no such thing.

Again, you suggest things which I did not say, nor did I suggest. At no point did I suggest you resign your job to go get experience...however, if you want another job for which you are not qualified, that's what you will have to do. You suggested it, not me. If you're happy where you are, and you relish that 13 year upgrade in a B737, then more power to you.

Either you meet the requirements, or you don't. Apparently you don't, and apparently that chaps you. You failed to get qualified, you thought you'd bypass the need, and it bit you in the butt. Sorry to hear of it, You have a decision to make...you tell us you feel stuck in your position, you lament your 13 years of upgrade, but also lament that you are unable to go elsewhere, all the while telling us you have no desire. If you have no desire, then drop it already, stop putting words in my mouth (or quote me if it makes you feel better), and move on.

Fact is, PIC experience is far more valueable for the purposes of being hired, and in many cases, also upgrading.