IFR in the Air/VFR on Top

[minitour]

I think I heard twice the other day (might have been the same person twice) trying to open an IFR in the air.

I personally don't really care for the idea of doing that (especially with Cell Phones, GCOs, etc) but I'm curious to find out if anyone does it a lot? Like, which companies or carriers do it...stuff like that?

Thanks all!

-mini

PS
What is the advantages of VFR on top? From what I gather, you've got to maintain VFR, be at a VFR altitude, and still follow your IFR rules too? I don't see how it would be a benefit to jump around/over/under clouds all day when you could just blow right through 'em

Thanks again!

-mini x2

 

[nosehair]

I think I heard twice the other day (might have been the same person twice) trying to open an IFR in the air.

I personally don't really care for the idea of doing that (especially with Cell Phones, GCOs, etc) but I'm curious to find out if anyone does it a lot? Like, which companies or carriers do it...stuff like that?

Operating from a non-tower airport where no communications on the ground is possible.

What is the advantages of VFR on top? From what I gather, you've got to maintain VFR, be at a VFR altitude, and still follow your IFR rules too? I don't see how it would be a benefit to jump around/over/under clouds all day when you could just blow right through 'em

Most pax don't like to "go through clouds" - it's bumpy and stuff.

 

[Vik]

Clouds can pose a problem .. icing, turb, that sort of thing.

Sometimes that VFR altitude will put you out of the clouds while another IFR altitude might not be available.

I think I heard twice the other day (might have been the same person twice) trying to open an IFR in the air.

I personally don't really care for the idea of doing that (especially with Cell Phones, GCOs, etc) but I'm curious to find out if anyone does it a lot? Like, which companies or carriers do it...stuff like that?

Thanks all!

-mini

PS
What is the advantages of VFR on top? From what I gather, you've got to maintain VFR, be at a VFR altitude, and still follow your IFR rules too? I don't see how it would be a benefit to jump around/over/under clouds all day when you could just blow right through 'em

Thanks again!

-mini x2

 

[avbug]

There's nothing wrong with picking up IFR in the air, so long as you can maintain your own terrain and obstacle clearance and remain VFR until you're cleared.

If you're departing class G, there is no requirement to obtain a clearance before operating IFR...think about that. I'm not advocating it, but such is the regulation.

Many places exist wherein picking up the clearance on the ground isn't possible. Picking it up in the air is.

As for VFR on top, remember that adhering to IFR practices and proceedures is no liability. You should strive to do that weather you're flying IFR or VFR. Accordingly, don't get too wrapped up in VFR on top being of no value because one might still be required to operate in accordance with IFR requirements.

 

[FracCapt]

We pick up our IFR in the air fairly often when operating out of small, uncontrolled airports. Many airports don't have the facilities to allow you to make a radio call to get a clearance on the ground. As for the phone....well, that's not always easy because we are at different airports every day. If we operated out of ONE specific airport all the time, calling would be easy...but...did you know that if you're in upstate New York, and your cell phone is based in Los Angeles....if you call 800-WXBRIEF...you'll get Riverside FSS(or whoever you'd get if you call from home)?

I DO have a list of all the FSS direct dial numbers, and occasionally have to do it that way. Usually, though, when the weather is good, I'll just blast off VFR and pick it up in the air. If the weather is at all questionable, or there is some nearby airspace I don't want to deal with VFR...I'll do what it takes to pick it up on the ground. Otherwise, we just set 16,500 or 17,500(depending on direction) in the altitude alerter and awaaaaaay we go! It's usually just much easier and faster that way.

 

[340drvr]

Airborne IFR clearance can be extremely useful, for all the reasons mentioned above, and, very often, ATC radar does not see all the way to the ground. This means for full IFR, many airports are a "one in-one out" situation, ATC can't give you clearance to depart until the inbound guy, who may not even be to IAF yet, lands and cancels his IFR. Under VMC weather, departing and maintaining VFR until you are high enough for radar contact allows more efficient flow. Of course, if the weather is IMC, you're stuck waiting on the ground, with a hold-for-release time.
VFR on top can be used in the mountains (or anywhere), to avoid having to fly at published MEA's. Say the MEA enroute is 12,000, but you're on top in the sunshine at 8000, requesting VFR on top lets you proceed at say, 8500, 9500, etc., stay out of clouds, and perhaps avoid having to use oxygen in a non-pressurized aircraft.
As always, one should always exercise sound judgement and good ADM.
Fly safe.

 

[minitour]

...VFR on top can be used in the mountains (or anywhere), to avoid having to fly at published MEA's...

I thought with VFR on top you had to be at least at MEA?

AIM 4-4-7
e. When operating in VFR conditions with an ATC authorization to "MAINTAIN VFR-ON-TOP/ MAINTAIN VFR CONDITIONS" pilots on IFR flight plans must:
3. Comply with instrumetn flight rules that are applicable to this flight; i.e., minimum IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio communications, course to be flown, adherence to ATC clearance, etc.

...or am I confusing "VFR on Top" with "Cruise" clearance? (i.e. "Cleared to Kentuckyhucky as filed cruise 8,000...")

Thanks for the help!

-mini

PS
As a followup for those of you that fly out of uncontrolled fields where you can't reach anyone on the ground:

What do you do if its 500-2 at the departure airport? (Assume Class E since you don't need a clearance or flight plan to be IFR in Class G)

Thanks again!

 

[A Squared]

VFR on top can be used in the mountains (or anywhere), to avoid having to fly at published MEA's. Say the MEA enroute is 12,000, but you're on top in the sunshine at 8000, requesting VFR on top lets you proceed at say, 8500, 9500, etc., stay out of clouds, and perhaps avoid having to use oxygen in a non-pressurized aircraft.

Not unless you are operating under Part 121. Oddly, this is one of the few instances where Part 121 is *less* restrictive than part 91. See legal opinion below.

I thought with VFR on top you had to be at least at MEA?

You are right, you do, unless operating under Part 121



AA Legal Opinion:

AGC-23

Interpretation: IFR Operations - VFR on-Top

Chief, Airspace, Air Traffic, and Environmental Quality Branch, AGC-23

ARM-7B

This is in reply to your memorandum containing the following question presented by your Flight Standards Division.

May an aircraft on an IFR flight plan but cleared by ATC to maintain "VFR conditions on-top" (FAR 91.121(a)) be operated below minimum en route IFR altitudes; i.e., without regard to FAR 91.119(A)?

Such operation is not permitted under Parts 91 or 135. It is our opinion that Sec. 91.119 does apply to IFR operations that are clear for "VFR conditions on-top." The minimum altitude rules of Sec. 91.119 are designed to ensure safe vertical separation between the aircraft and the terrain. These minimum altitude rules apply to all AFE flight, whether in IFR or VFR weather conditions, and whether assigned a specific altitude or flight level or "VFR conditions on-top." A pilot operating on a "VFR conditions on-top" clearance may operate at the altitude or flight level of his choice; however, he is required to adhere to Sec. Sec. 91.119 as well as Sec. 91.109 of the FARs. While Sec. 91.121(a) specifically incorporates the VFR flight levels of Sec. 91.109, there is no basis to conclude that Sec. 91.119 does not apply.

Section 121.657, however, provides for an analogous "over-the-top" IFR operation under certain restrictive conditions at minimum altitudes that may be below those prescribed under Part 95.

This interpretation has been coordinated with AFS-800 and AAT-200 who are of the opinion that the regulations do not need clarification in this respect.

RICHARD W. DANFORTH

 

[HMR]

A Squared,
Good post. When I was flying piston twins and King Airs around the Sierras I would often request, and get, VFR climbs and altitudes below MEA with the statement that I would be responsible for my own terrain clearance. This seems to go against the AA legal opinion?

Mini- Alot of times VFR-on-top will allow you to go direct to a fix that wouldn't be possible due to traffic at an IFR altitude. This comes in handy when operating IFR from small airports near big hubs like KSFO. It's a useful technique in small aircraft when the boss is counting every tenth.

 

[340drvr]

Good post. When I was flying piston twins and King Airs around the Sierras I would often request, and get, VFR climbs and altitudes below MEA with the statement that I would be responsible for my own terrain clearance. This seems to go against the AA legal opinion?

Uh-oh.....yeah, me too, I've been getting clearance like this for years, but it appears it's N/A......this subject will require some more research....verrrry interestink!

 

[avbug]

A VFR climb or descent; obviously. Either you must be able to maintain your own terrain separation below the minimum IFR altitude, or the controller can't clear you until you reach minimum IFR altitude (usually MVA for the controller), or a published route segment with a minimum altitude attainable with gauranteed clearance.

The controller isn't clearing you for an IFR enroute segment below IFR minimum altitudes, when asking if you can maintain your own terrain separation. The controller is clearing you to climb to a minimum altitude and asking if you can maintain your own terrain separation until that time. This presupposes that you will maintain adequate VFR cloud clearance and visibility at the same time.

What do you do if its 500-2 at the departure airport? (Assume Class E since you don't need a clearance or flight plan to be IFR in Class G)

Simple. Don't go. Unless you can obtain the clearance, don't take off in those conditions. Go to town, make a call. Get on a cell. Send a carrier pidgeon and wait for it's return. Use a campbells soup can with a kite string. But get your clearance and void time before departing. It's a whole lot smarter and safer for you and everyone else involved.

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

Mini--Let's assume you are flying westbound late in the afternoon VFR. The sun is in your eyes and it's very hazy. Even though there may not be a cloud in the sky, you can call FSS and FILE an IFR plan in the air. You can also do that with ATC, but it is recommended to do it through FSS so you don't tie up the frequency. Then you can call ATC and open your IFR in flight. Just have all your info ready when you call them up. When you call to open IFR, ATC will say something like, "Cessna 123, cleared present position direct ABC, maintain 4,000, squawk 1234." You are already talking to them so you won't get a freq. unless they want you to contact someone else. If that's the case, most of the time they will tell you to change freq. first and then let the other person issue your clearance.

 

[SDCFI]

Good post. When I was flying piston twins and King Airs around the Sierras I would often request, and get, VFR climbs and altitudes below MEA with the statement that I would be responsible for my own terrain clearance. This seems to go against the AA legal opinion?

Uh-oh.....yeah, me too, I've been getting clearance like this for years, but it appears it's N/A......this subject will require some more research....verrrry interestink!

Me three. I used to fly on top at 9500 with an MEA of 11,000 under 135 to avoid having to use O2. ATC never said anything, not that they're supposed to be holding my hand. Here's an interesting use for VFR-on-top: non-radar approach control, two aircraft inbound IFR for the visual. Only one can be cleared for the visual unless tower has BOTH in sight, or a/c #2 has #1 in sight. By getting an "on top" clearance one can begin a visual descent to the airport without either of the above. Pretty useful sometimes, I use it regularly. Cancelling is not an option for us without company flight following or a VFR flt plan activated. Pretty lame. "On top" also relieves the controller of separation req's so a more direct routing or better altitude may become available if traffic is a factor.

 

[minitour]

Thanks guys!

Nice to hear some "real world" situations for VFR On Top...when ya hear about it during ground school it seems like "uh...why?" but I think now I understand

Thanks again!

-mini

 

[Vector4fun]

Two Comments:



1. I doubt 9 out of 10 ATC Controllers know or care about the MEA rule. Not that anyone should be breaking it. Remember, most controllers aren't pilots.


2. Picking up your IFR in the air. Works great so long as you're dealing with the facility who "owns" the airspace over the point your flight plan originated. Sux sometimes when trying to pick it up 20-30 miles from that point. Let me give an example. You're departing Georgetown, TX. for Dallas. Georgetown, (GTU) is app 25 miles north of Austin, and about 6 miles south of our airspace boundry with Grey Approach. You depart Georgetown VFR, and for whatever reason, decide to call Grey, (GRK) for your clearance, rather than Austin approach, because you're already crossing into their airspace, and Austin always vectors you East-West initially, until a handoff to GRK can be accomplished.

Sounds like a plan until you learn that GRK isn't going to have access to your flight plan. Since GTU is in Austin's airspace, that is where the flight plan and data will be sent. GRK approach can't access it, or activate it. The HOST computer won't allow it. They'll have to call Austin, ask us to find it, forward the necessary info, enter a Departure Message (DM) into the FDIO, and then wait for several minutes for the flight plan data to travel from AUS, to ZHU, to ZFW, and then back down to GRK.

So the point is, if you're going to pick it up in the air, try to be very close to the point where your flight plan originated, and always call the appropriate facility. Trying to "short-cut" the system, even with good intentions, doesn't always pay off. You can file from over a certain NAS fix or VOR if you want to. That may work out better. This is less of a problem when dealing with a Center, rather than an Approach Control. Also, most Skyhawks don't outrun NAS data too often, but jets certainly can pose a problem at times.....

 

[Swerpipe]

Other reason

What do you do if its 500-2 at the departure airport? (Assume Class E since you don't need a clearance or flight plan to be IFR in Class G)
Thanks again!

If you takeoff from Class G airpace remember that the airpace will be class E at 700, ft, 1200 ft or wherever applicable. 500-2 would force you to get IFR on the ground even departing Class G under most scenarios.

VFR departures are very useful when departing airports without approach control only with Center service (e.g. Santa Maria). Traffic congestion can make it such that only one departure is possible every 20 minutes. A VFR takeoff sometimes is the best option under the right conditions.


Other VFR on top reasons:
1) Your other company traffic is just ahead of you 3-4 miles and smooth ride at 16000 ft, bumpy ride at 14,000 and below against headwinds. So, you get VFR on top at 16500 and you maintain separation from that traffic.

2)You can get a routing that is more direct and prevent you from conflicting with other IFR traffic. Specially when you are about to cross heavy traffic zones on your way to your destination airport. Center or approach in that case would allow you to go Direct

 

[minitour]

*edit*
eh...nevermind