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IFR in the Air/VFR on Top

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A VFR climb or descent; obviously. Either you must be able to maintain your own terrain separation below the minimum IFR altitude, or the controller can't clear you until you reach minimum IFR altitude (usually MVA for the controller), or a published route segment with a minimum altitude attainable with gauranteed clearance.

The controller isn't clearing you for an IFR enroute segment below IFR minimum altitudes, when asking if you can maintain your own terrain separation. The controller is clearing you to climb to a minimum altitude and asking if you can maintain your own terrain separation until that time. This presupposes that you will maintain adequate VFR cloud clearance and visibility at the same time.

What do you do if its 500-2 at the departure airport? (Assume Class E since you don't need a clearance or flight plan to be IFR in Class G)
Simple. Don't go. Unless you can obtain the clearance, don't take off in those conditions. Go to town, make a call. Get on a cell. Send a carrier pidgeon and wait for it's return. Use a campbells soup can with a kite string. But get your clearance and void time before departing. It's a whole lot smarter and safer for you and everyone else involved.
 
Mini--Let's assume you are flying westbound late in the afternoon VFR. The sun is in your eyes and it's very hazy. Even though there may not be a cloud in the sky, you can call FSS and FILE an IFR plan in the air. You can also do that with ATC, but it is recommended to do it through FSS so you don't tie up the frequency. Then you can call ATC and open your IFR in flight. Just have all your info ready when you call them up. When you call to open IFR, ATC will say something like, "Cessna 123, cleared present position direct ABC, maintain 4,000, squawk 1234." You are already talking to them so you won't get a freq. unless they want you to contact someone else. If that's the case, most of the time they will tell you to change freq. first and then let the other person issue your clearance.
 
340drvr said:
Good post. When I was flying piston twins and King Airs around the Sierras I would often request, and get, VFR climbs and altitudes below MEA with the statement that I would be responsible for my own terrain clearance. This seems to go against the AA legal opinion?

Uh-oh.....yeah, me too, I've been getting clearance like this for years, but it appears it's N/A......this subject will require some more research....verrrry interestink!
Me three. I used to fly on top at 9500 with an MEA of 11,000 under 135 to avoid having to use O2. ATC never said anything, not that they're supposed to be holding my hand. Here's an interesting use for VFR-on-top: non-radar approach control, two aircraft inbound IFR for the visual. Only one can be cleared for the visual unless tower has BOTH in sight, or a/c #2 has #1 in sight. By getting an "on top" clearance one can begin a visual descent to the airport without either of the above. Pretty useful sometimes, I use it regularly. Cancelling is not an option for us without company flight following or a VFR flt plan activated. Pretty lame. "On top" also relieves the controller of separation req's so a more direct routing or better altitude may become available if traffic is a factor.
 
Thanks guys!

Nice to hear some "real world" situations for VFR On Top...when ya hear about it during ground school it seems like "uh...why?" but I think now I understand

Thanks again!

-mini
 
Two Comments:



1. I doubt 9 out of 10 ATC Controllers know or care about the MEA rule. Not that anyone should be breaking it. Remember, most controllers aren't pilots.


2. Picking up your IFR in the air. Works great so long as you're dealing with the facility who "owns" the airspace over the point your flight plan originated. Sux sometimes when trying to pick it up 20-30 miles from that point. Let me give an example. You're departing Georgetown, TX. for Dallas. Georgetown, (GTU) is app 25 miles north of Austin, and about 6 miles south of our airspace boundry with Grey Approach. You depart Georgetown VFR, and for whatever reason, decide to call Grey, (GRK) for your clearance, rather than Austin approach, because you're already crossing into their airspace, and Austin always vectors you East-West initially, until a handoff to GRK can be accomplished.

Sounds like a plan until you learn that GRK isn't going to have access to your flight plan. Since GTU is in Austin's airspace, that is where the flight plan and data will be sent. GRK approach can't access it, or activate it. The HOST computer won't allow it. They'll have to call Austin, ask us to find it, forward the necessary info, enter a Departure Message (DM) into the FDIO, and then wait for several minutes for the flight plan data to travel from AUS, to ZHU, to ZFW, and then back down to GRK.

So the point is, if you're going to pick it up in the air, try to be very close to the point where your flight plan originated, and always call the appropriate facility. Trying to "short-cut" the system, even with good intentions, doesn't always pay off. You can file from over a certain NAS fix or VOR if you want to. That may work out better. This is less of a problem when dealing with a Center, rather than an Approach Control. Also, most Skyhawks don't outrun NAS data too often, but jets certainly can pose a problem at times.....
 
Other reason

minitour said:
What do you do if its 500-2 at the departure airport? (Assume Class E since you don't need a clearance or flight plan to be IFR in Class G)
Thanks again!
If you takeoff from Class G airpace remember that the airpace will be class E at 700, ft, 1200 ft or wherever applicable. 500-2 would force you to get IFR on the ground even departing Class G under most scenarios.

VFR departures are very useful when departing airports without approach control only with Center service (e.g. Santa Maria). Traffic congestion can make it such that only one departure is possible every 20 minutes. A VFR takeoff sometimes is the best option under the right conditions.


Other VFR on top reasons:
1) Your other company traffic is just ahead of you 3-4 miles and smooth ride at 16000 ft, bumpy ride at 14,000 and below against headwinds. So, you get VFR on top at 16500 and you maintain separation from that traffic.

2)You can get a routing that is more direct and prevent you from conflicting with other IFR traffic. Specially when you are about to cross heavy traffic zones on your way to your destination airport. Center or approach in that case would allow you to go Direct
 

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