IFR GPS as clock for ifr flight

[satpak77]

some guidance

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/f8651faffc2b9063862569ae006d4668/$FILE/ac20-94.pdf

Note that nowhere (and this is important legal note) in the circular is "must" or "will" or "no person may...." or similar phrase used. In all sections, the word "should" is used.

the above Advisory Circular takes some steam out of my IFR digital wristwatch argument, however "duly noted" and I will proceed with that in mind.

more on GPS

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/7e85c38aa086d6f9862569d8007806eb/$FILE/AC90-94part1.pdf

In short, in my non law-school opinion, the IFR Approved GPS "clock" is legal for IFR flight

later

 

[minitour]

I hate GPSs, I hate GPSs, I hate GPSs, I hate GPSs...

all they do is p*ss me off! Especially those dman approaches!

Give me an ILS or an NDB even! Keep me away from a GPS and their f*cking approaches!

*rant over*

Thanks!

-mini

 

[100LL... Again!]

That is correct. Early en route gps boxes had no approach capability and no raim.

The clock function should keep working even if the satellite reception drops off. If memory serves, satellite signal keeps the clock's time perfect, but the clock will still work if reception is lost.

 

[satpak77]

I hate GPSs, I hate GPSs, I hate GPSs, I hate GPSs...

dude GPS's aren't any harder to fly than a VOR approach with a few step downs. And course guidance is more accurate.

if you can fly a VOR or a LOC approach you can do a GPS

whats the big deal

 

[100LL... Again!]

If you can run a PC and download a song from the internet, you can run a GPS.

Technophobe!!

 

[seethru]

I hate GPSs, I hate GPSs, I hate GPSs, I hate GPSs...

all they do is p*ss me off! Especially those dman approaches!

Give me an ILS or an NDB even! Keep me away from a GPS and their f*cking approaches!

*rant over*

Thanks!

-mini

GPS units take some time to get to know. You really have to get into the manual and learn the different features and how they relate to your flying.

I've been fortunate enough to have experience in 3 of the big manufacturers of panel mounted GPS, namely Garmin, Bendix King, and UPS (now also Garmin). I prefer Garmin, and we use it almost entirely, except of course during an ILS. Still it adds a lot of functionality to our cockpit and the device is rich in features.

Greg

 

[minitour]

dude GPS's aren't any harder to fly than a VOR approach with a few step downs. And course guidance is more accurate.

if you can fly a VOR or a LOC approach you can do a GPS

whats the big deal

I dunno...went up with a CFI the other day to learn them (since I didn't learn IFR on any GPS -or DME- equipped planes)...

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** I was frustrated...and spent! Too much button pushing and adjusting and re-adjusting and direct and obs and adjusting in such a high workload time (approach).

I'll still take a one nav airplane on a VOR approach where I have to identify 4 or 5 fixes by switching the OBS and frequency a bunch...

That's easy...this GPS stuff....eek...

I think it is just a matter of working with them though...from the manual to in flight programing and sequencing...I think it's just like anything else, the more you do it, the better you get at it...

...but like steep turns in IMC, I still don't like it

-mini

 

[seethru]

mini,

I think you may want to find a good instructor who actually knows how to use a GPS. I don't think most instructors today really know how to use them. I must say that our GPS has actually freed up a lot of my workload, instead of the other way around as you were fearful of.

Garmin even provides lesson plans for you or your instructor. Check out their website.

I don't know how old you are, but judging by your hours listed I would say that GPS is going to be very much in your future.

Greg

 

[minitour]

mini,

I think you may want to find a good instructor who actually knows how to use a GPS. I don't think most instructors today really know how to use them. I must say that our GPS has actually freed up a lot of my workload, instead of the other way around as you were fearful of.

Garmin even provides lesson plans for you or your instructor. Check out their website.

I don't know how old you are, but judging by your hours listed I would say that GPS is going to be very much in your future.

Greg

Greg,
Agreed I need more hours...but the guy I went up with is very good...lots of GPS experience too...

Unfortunately, I did not have the oportunity to experience a GPS approach or GPS navigation during my IFR training (not to mention I never flew a DME Arc until the other day...)...

I think I'll get the hang of it, but next time I'm home I'm probably going to be spending a few hours in the plane just reading the book on the ground one day...

Just to really get used to it and all of the bells and whistles...

...it took me a while to get ADFs and I'm sure it will take me a while to get GPSs...

Hopefully I won't have to fly any GPS approaches to minimums until I get a few down really good in VMC...

Thanks for the kind words all

-mini

 

[350DRIVER]

Garmin even provides lesson plans for you or your instructor. Check out their website.

St. Peter could be seated at the right hand of the Father with these "lesson plans" and handing them out, it will be of little if any help to him unless he is able to obtain actual experience in aircraft that are gps equipped. This is no substitute and shouldn't be viewed as one for sim time and or aircraft time, I wouldn't waste the time nor the effort on these lesson plans since there are different gps models out there on the market present day and each of them are unique and different in more ways than one. Have you done any formal training on any equipment at a FSI, Simcom, etc?. It would be meaningless and pointless to study a specific model of a gps if it isn't a model that he is likely to see, experience, fly, etc. Most training providers whether it be inhouse or a contracted company will train you on the specific model that is (or will be in) the aircraft that you are to fly. Usually this includes not only ground instruction but also sim and flight instruction so there is ample opportunity to know the unit and know the set up well. The unit will only be as good as it's user no matter which unit is installed in your aircraft.

mini-

One of the main problems (in my opinion) that I have seen over the years with newly minted instrument pilots and flight instructors is that they are not overly comfortable with gps approaches due to one simple reason, most of them never have had the opportunity to fly them since all of the equipment that they trained in from the early days were not gps equipped aircraft. It is somewhat hard and difficult to get "good" and "proficient" with regards to flying the gps approaches when you haven't really had any opportunity to fly them since the majority if not all your training was done in equipment without a ifr certified gps onboard where you could learn, fly, and execute the approaches. Spending money on gps manuals, books, etc, certainly is no substitute for actually flying the approaches in the aircraft under real circumstances. I have been asked many times, "should I buy the XYZ make me a great gps approach pilot book", "should I buy the gps approach manual mickey mouse uses", etc, etc, my answer was the same each and every time, NO- it won't make you any more proficient unless you have some airplane to be able to fly the gps approaches in. Save your money, learn in the actual airplane and/or sim.

Best advice I could offer up and give would be to fly a few gps approaches when the opportunity presents itself in vmc until you get comfortable then once you obtain that launch and shoot a couple under imc. Gps approaches are easy, straight forward, reliable, it just takes awhile to get them down. 99% of it is making sure the approach is "correctly" loaded and sequenced in the box, once this happens then flying the actual approach is rather easy and requires no more effort than flying any other approach. Most people who make mistakes that I have seen have done so when they are adding, deleting, updating, or changing something up in the box when they are trying to fly the approach when things get rather busy up front and the work load is increased. I have seen very few mistakes being made when everything is set up correctly in the gps, majority of mistakes have come in the way of radio communications. Once you have been cleared for the approach is not the time to be "fumbling" around with the gps, if you haven't got it "set up" by this point then you should't even be attempting the approach yet. I have seen more than a few rides busted due to a simple mistake of getting the gps incorrectly set up and rushing things.

I will never forget having a newly minted first officer that I was paired up with doing a routine (or so I thought) trip and he didn't have a clue on how to set up the Garmin430 and load the gps approach into the flight plan, so I told him fine, no problemo at all, I will set it up and load it, etc, etc, ... All was well until he decided that he wanted to "experiment" with the unit and hit the "direct to" button to some fix that wasn't even on the published approach right as we were cleared for the approach, needless to say he had altered the gps to fly a route that was not going to work so I then had to undo this screw-up in a very short amount of time since I wanted to get in and make it work on the first approach since the windshield anti-ice had become inop and the wx conditions were not overly "friendly" by this time.... Lesson learned, stay ahead of the plane, especially the gps, and all other variables and all will go as planned.

It is relatively easy to make a minor mistake that may end up coming back and biting you rather hard when flying a gps approach. Our 135 ops specs had numerous precautions written into it so both crew members would check one another at multiple times enroute prior to the approach phrase and well before the approach would even be started to avoid situations as mentioned in the above. The checks and balances worked quite well with most crew members and this limited most all errors that could have been present. As a rule of thumb I would double check the left side with the f-o's set up numerous times once the approach was loaded and transferred onto the mfd screen. It was pretty simple on the UNS 1 FMS once the approach was loaded and the approach phase had begun, unfortunately most light twins don't have this sort of equipment set up.

Of all the above I would certainly suggest spending some amount of time on the ground with the gps manual specific to the plane that you will be operating and get comfortable with the unit prior to even flying any further approaches, this in itself should get you well ahead of the curve and make things go that much smoother for your next outing. Once you have spent some time in the manual then "dry fly" the aircraft on the ground, no further problems should be present.

As a side note, I would not become overly worried or absorbed in the gps approaches since in time you will have plenty of opportunity to fly them as you advance in your flying career. If you do decide to instruct at Airman you won't be shooting many (if any) gps approaches since those aircraft are not equipped to be able to shoot the approaches so you won't have much first hand experience until you move further along in your flying career. This is something that will happen, just be patient and allow time to takes it toll. I was pretty fortunate early on to have flown A-36's, C421's, etc, so I got comfortable rather early on but many have no direct experience with gps approaches until they move well beyond the instructor ranks and are flying pax around. You can expect company specific ground and flight training on this so it will come to you in time.

It is rather easy to get frustrated during your "early years" in this "game" but try not to look at the errors and mistakes that you made as a "negative", look at it them instead in a different light and turn it into a positive and try not to duplicate those same mistakes on the second time around. Success only comes through failures, this doesn't only apply to the business world. I would be willing to wager a substantial amount of money that a year or so down the line that these approaches will have become a "walk in the park" for you.

good luck and above and beyond all else make **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** sure you keep that greasy side down.

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