IFR Flight Plans...Enroute time?

[Flying Illini]

When filing an IFR flight plan and filling out the Enroute Time box, what time goes there? It is airport to airport correct? If so, should you include time to climb and time to descend to the destination airport, or should it just be the time to arrive over that airport? I know that it is NOT the time from departure airport to an IAF.

Thanks!

 

[Deftone45075]

Include time to climb and descend. Although you'll likely be descending at your cruise airspeed, however when you fly something that can exceeed 250 above 10,000 the speed reduction below that altitude would have to be taken into account.

Put in the time from airport to airport, including climb/descent.

 

[scubabri]

If I recall, it's from the time your flight plan is activated and you are airborn on it, to the FAF of your primary destination.

During my training, I asked my instructor about this, and basically, he said, don't calculate time to climb and decend because they basically cancel each other out. During my instrument check ride, asked the DPE about this and he said that my instructor was correct, and that in addition I should keep cruise speed as practical to the FAF.

the AIM just says, Block 7. Enter your estimated time en route based on latest forcast winds

Pretty vauge.

Brian

 

[Deftone45075]

using your cruise speed to the FAF works in a slow airplane where you are below 10,000.

If your airplane has a TAS in cruise of 500 knots, not factoring in the descent (which will require a large speed reduction to 250 below 10,000) will cause you to report an improper enroute time.

I never heard of only using the time from top of climb to top of descent.

Anyone else have any input on this?

 

[scubabri]

OOPS, I goofed, you are right, IAF.. not FAF, my fingers weren't thinking

brian

 

[IP076]

My 2 Cents....


91.169 IFR Flight Plan Information Required

(a)(1) Information required under 91.153 (a) of this part

91.153 VFR Flight Plan Information Required

(a)(6) The point of first intended landing and the estimated elapsed time until over that point.

I would say that this means Liftoff to Touchdown.

No where does it say anything about planning ETE to an IAF.

 

[Deftone45075]

I agree with IP076,

The Regs and the AIM both say elapsed time till over the first point of intended landing.

There is no place in the Regs or the AIM that mentions calculating your time to an IAF. Therefore it IS airport to airport.

 

[Deftone45075]

91.185 strictly deals with two-way radio com. failure. It states that it is advised to leave the clearence limit (if there was one) at the efc time. It has no bearing on how to calculate enroute time.

 

[Deftone45075]

The whole thing about the IAF is for filling your route of flight. When filling an IFR flight plan, you must file a route that ends at an IAF for an IAP to the airport of intended landing. This, however, is not where you stop calculating your elapsed time.

 

[Deftone45075]

But, if you cannot leave the IAF until your ETE has elapsed, why file to anything else?

You wouldn't, but again, the question is not what you file to, it is what to you file for your time enroute. For that purpose, the regs say "elapsed time till over te point of intended landing".

You land at the airport, not at the IAF. And anyway, it takes what?....tw minutes or less to go from an IAF to final. Thats less than 160 seconds. I doubt anyones flight lanning calculations are so accurate that you cannail it down to that. And if you d reac the IAF exactly at the time as planned, are you reall going to hold for the purpase of killing two minutes?

 

[Deftone45075]

Most small airports that have a particularly long published transition also have a published hold at the FAF that can also be used as an IAF, so you would file to that fix, make yourentry to the hld and become established on the approach course. This will take about 2 mins.

There are always exceptions, but 15 minutesto go from an IAF is pretty rare.
Either way, the time enroute would still be from takeoff till your over that field for the purposes of entering the time on a flight plan.

 

[IP076]

OK, lets make it my 3 cents worth....

91.185 IFR Operations: Two Way Radio Communications Failure

(c) (3) (i) When the Clearance Limit is a fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time enroute.

So, this means depart the fix at the EFC if you got one or at your Flight Plan ETA for that fix. (Not the airport)

Make Sense? Same would be true for the next paragraph in the regs also.

Could clear all the confusion if you got an EFC time from ATC every time. Just ask them for one.

80% of the time your clearance limit is the airport, so that means you just go and shoot the approach no matter what.

Also, nowhere does it say that you must file an IFR flight plan to an IAF. What if the weather is such that will allow a visual approach. I could legally file direct to the airport (GPS or VRV) from some enroute fix (VOR or INTERSECTION). I can legally file IFR with only DIRECT going into the ROUTE section of the flight plan.

 

[Deftone45075]

So, this means depart the fix at the EFC if you got one or at your Flight Plan ETA for that fix. (Not the airport)

Your post is acurate but quite incomplete.

This applies when there is a clearance limit. If you are cleared to the destination airport, there is no clearance limit.

And you also did not mention that the paragraph you quoted, (3)(1), is applicable when the clearance limit is an IAF for the approach in question. If the clearance limit (again if there is one) is not a IAF, then upon arrival atthe clearance limit you continue to the IAF without holding. this is in (3)(2) of the same reg.

And the fact still remains that as per the FAR's, the time to be entered is the elapsed time till over the pointof intended landing. For the purpose of fillingout the flight plan, the answer is in black and white. It does not mention anything about your clearance limit because you will not even know if there is one at the time of filing your flight plan.

 

[IP076]

You're right, I just didn't quote the next paragraph, I did mention the same is true though.

If your clearance limit is the destination airport, then theres no problem. Just go and fly the approach.

We're also forgetting one big point here also.

The AIM also states that it is impossible to come up with procedures for every situation and to use sound judgement. I'm thinking that comm failure in actual IMC is close enough to an emergency for me. In that case I can deviate from part 91 as needed to safely end my flight.

 

[Deftone45075]

Absolutely. your the pic, you do what you need to in order to resolve the emergency. In the case of lost comms., the last thing I want to do is fly around in cirlcles killing time.

 

[prpjt]

The AIM also states that it is impossible to come up with procedures for every situation and to use sound judgement

This cannot be stressed enough. You are going to find yourself going to airports that may have many approaches, but none of which have a published IAF. Dallas Love is a good example. It's not all black and white.

 

[Mitsipilot]

I don't know about every one else here, but I hardly ever file to an IAF, unless it just works out that way. Do you all do things differently? Just curious.

 

[scubabri]

I would argue that your clearance limit is the IAF or beginning or the approach because in order to make the approach, you have to be cleared by ATC in some form or fashion.

At least all of the times I've flown them, I was cleared for them, I don't know how this works in non-radar environments, only having flown a couple, but both times, ATC cleared me for the approach as well.

just my $.03 (adjusted for inflation)

Brian

 

[Deftone45075]

The IAF is not your clearance limit unless ATC told you "you are cleared to Xyzyz (iaf), expect further clearance at 0000Z." If they said you are "cleared to the destination airport" than you do not have a clearance limit.

The fact that you need to be cleared for the approach and to land does not make it a "Clearance Limit."

A clearance limit will be used when you cannot be cleared all the way to your destination airport. You will know about it when you call for your departure clearance, or if you are already enroute, when they assign a re-route and it does not take you all th way to your destination. In either case, ATC will advise you of the Limit and the EFC time.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Good grief! ETA calculations are an educated guess at best anyway. Round down a little so you don't have to hold if you go nordo.

 

[Singlecoil]

When filling an IFR flight plan, you must file a route that ends at an IAF for an IAP to the airport of intended landing.

You are not the only one who thinks this; I had a DE ream for not doing this on my ATP checkride, but I passed. That was the first time I had ever heard that. He had never flown commercially, but had been a DE in the Seattle area for years. He had some other strange ideas as well.

Anyway, I have flown for 1 major, 1 regional, and 1 135 carrier and we didn't and we don't file to IAF's. True, most places you go you are getting radar vectors, but even non-radar you don't have to do that. The reason is that many times you will be shooting the visual, and why would you want to waste your company's money by doing extra flying? When it is IMC at your destination, you will get a revised clearance from ATC to an IAF for an approach. Besides, how are you going to know which way an airport is landing when you are filing a flight plan hours before you are going to be arriving? You can't and you aren't expected to know. If you lose radio contact (notice I didn't say loose radio contact, that would require a screwdriver), odds are you were filed over an IAF anyway, but if you weren't, fly to the airport, go direct to an IAF of your choosing, and shoot the approach of your choosing. You guys all correctly talked about when to do all that, so I'll just reserve my comments to routing. Again, airlines don't file to IAFs, so why should you. On my ATP checkride, when I was forced to do it, approach asked me what my deal was since I listed my destination as an airport, and ended my filed route with a fix 15 miles away (it had an arc). Your filed route should always get you to the destination airport. If the last navaid is not co-located, you should end your filed route with a direct, as long as you are within operational service volume.

For those of you who insist on filing to an IAF, how do you file IFR to an airport that has no navaid and no approach? Its a cloudy day, you have a medevac patient to pick up from Bum F. Egypt. How do you file to an airport like that?

 

[Deftone45075]

Yeah, I should have noted that it is not a mandatory requirement, but a practice. And I do not always do so myself. It does make sense if you are IFR and have lost radio comm. that you have filed a route to an IAF for the approach you will use. This allows you to navigate without the use of vectors. Simply depending on conditions being VFR at your destination isn't too reliable of a practice.

I have, as you have said, never seen this in the FAR's or the AIM and agree it is not a reg. I learned of it from a captain I fly with now, who has flown for ACA and United. Apparantly it was a question brought up during his interviews.