IFR equipment question

[JB74]

Are you legal for IFR flight if your plane has an inop clock, but you have a digital clip on clock instead? 91.205 doesn't specify.

Thanks in advance.

 

[avbug]

No.

 

[JB74]

Is there anywhere in the regs that states this? If I had a yoke mount, isn't that "technically" mounted to the plane, therefore included as equipment? Or does the clock need to be powered from the plane's electrical system?

Thanks

 

[TopGun-MAV]

a very good question!
indeed you are legal to fly. as long as you have another form of time peace with a sweaping second hand.

just my 2 cents

 

[rubberducky]

You are not legal to fly. Unless the aircraft has an MEL(unlikely for Part 91). The clock is required for IFR flight under 91.205 it also must be operating. Thats like saying your VOR is inop so you have a handheld NAV/COMM or GPS for nav...

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

The clock has to be wired into the aircraft. A yoke clip with a clock doesn't cut it.

I have found that clocks and various lights tend to die at the end of the day, while taxing back to the ramp. Sometimes it is better not to ask when you might not like the awnsers you get

 

[Dutch]

How about the clock in the GPS that is installed in the aircraft. Every GPS I've come across has the system time listed on an aux page. Would this meet the requirement? (Just plalying devil's advocate)

Dutch

 

[JB74]

The clock has to be wired into the aircraft. A yoke clip with a clock doesn't cut it

I figured as much, just wondering where in the FAR/AIM (91.205 doesn't specify) to support an answer during an oral.

 

[Eric]

I read in "Everything explained for the Professional Pilot" that the clock must be the one on the plane's equipment list. i.e. the one that is hardwired in the panel.

I haven't been able to find anything in the regs that states this. Maybe someone has a legal interpretation?

 

[midlifeflyer]

I figured as much, just wondering where in the FAR/AIM (91.205 doesn't specify) to support an answer during an oral.

You must have learned TOMATO FLAMES as a child.

You're making a very common error caused by the emphasis on memorizing this junk - thinking that 91.205 is a major part of the rules about equipment. It's actually very minor.

91.205 is a very generalized section that simply tells us the absolute minimum types of equipment that have to be on airplanes in order for them to be used in certain operations. It does not tell us even close to =all= of the equipment that is necessary for an operation, nor which equipment qualifies (does a wrist compass suffice for the magnetic compass requirement - if a stick on clock does, why not?)

So, if your airplane is modern enough to have a POH or AFM, go to it's equipment list and see whether "clock" is in the list as required equipment (or perhaps optional since it's not required for VFR) - if it is, =that's= the clock you need to have operable on the airplane (in the absence of a MEL)

 

[pilotman2105]

You must have learned TOMATO FLAMES as a child.

You're making a very common error caused by the emphasis on memorizing this junk - thinking that 91.205 is a major part of the rules about equipment. It's actually very minor.

91.205 is a very generalized section that simply tells us the absolute minimum types of equipment that have to be on airplanes in order for them to be used in certain operations. It does not tell us even close to =all= of the equipment that is necessary for an operation, nor which equipment qualifies (does a wrist compass suffice for the magnetic compass requirement - if a stick on clock does, why not?)

So, if your airplane is modern enough to have a POH or AFM, go to it's equipment list and see whether "clock" is in the list as required equipment (or perhaps optional since it's not required for VFR) - if it is, =that's= the clock you need to have operable on the airplane (in the absence of a MEL)

91.205 says that that the clock have a sweep second hand or a digital display. We've established that the clock is required, and if not installed, then the aircraft is not capable for IFR flight. But what constitutes a "clock" as defined in 91.205? A stick on? The one on my wrist?

If the aircraft equipment list has a clock, what requires that clock to be the one that meets the requirements of 91.205?

I agree with you midlifeflyer, and I understand the ultimate answer to the question, but I guess that I'm looking for concrete evidence to it up.

 

[IP076]

How about the clock in the GPS that is installed in the aircraft. Every GPS I've come across has the system time listed on an aux page. Would this meet the requirement? (Just plalying devil's advocate)

Dutch

I'd have to think that it would work. Heck, its more accurate than any of the other ones.....

As long as it displays seconds, it should be ok, I think the GX50 only displays hours and minutes...I'll have to check tonight...

 

[pilotman2105]

...As long as it displays seconds, it should be ok, I think the GX50 only displays hours and minutes...I'll have to check tonight...

14 CFR 91.205(d)(6)
"A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation"

I interpret that as meaning an analog clock with a sweep second hand or a digital clock (no requirement for seconds).

Splitting hairs I know, but hey, gotta find the holes in the regs somehow.

 

[ThunderRun]

In my opinion, this issue is addressed by 91.213. The question is can you fly IFR when the clock installed (assumed) in the plane is inop. It is irrelevant whether or not you have a clock in your GPS or a handheld timer. If the clock is inop, you cannot deactivate and placard it "Inoperative" since it is required for the kind of flight operation (IFR) being conducted by 91.205. You can placard it and fly under VFR.

 

[IP076]

14 CFR 91.205(d)(6)
"A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation"

Hey, you wrote that exactly as the reg....read it....displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer OR digital presentation....Digital is fine.

 

[bobbysamd]

More TAB Express ground school "knowledge"

a very good question!
indeed you are legal to fly. as long as you have another form of time peace with a sweaping second hand.

just my 2 cents

Your two cents, "Mav," aren't worth a quarter. (Apologies for mixing metaphors.)

The clock, with the "sweaping" second hand, must be installed in and be a part of the aircraft, according to 14 CFR 91.205(a) and (d)(6):

Sec. 91.205 - Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.

(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.

* * * *

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.

(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.

(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:

(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in §121.305(j) of this chapter; and

(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of ±80 degrees of pitch and ±120 degrees of roll and installed in accordance with §29.1303(g) of this chapter.

(4) Slip-skid indicator.

(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.

(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.

(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.

(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).

(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).

(emphasis added)

In other words, it's like trying to substitute your wristwatch for the panel clock. You cannot do it per the regs.

You know something, "Mav," you embarass TAB and do it a grave disservice every time you post. Not only do you not know what you're talking about, ewe dont even no how to spel write.

Apologies for any redundant information.

I like IP076's signature.

 

[pilotman2105]

Hey, you wrote that exactly as the reg....read it....displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer OR digital presentation....Digital is fine.

I do have a tendency to read what I write. Tends to work better that way.

My confusion was in whether or not the "or" was allowing for a choice between an analog or digital clock, OR if it was allowing for a choice between a sweep second hand or a digital clock.

 

[pilotman2105]

Re: More TAB Express ground school "knowledge"

(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.

* * * *

That's what I was looking for. I over looked that everytime I re-read the reg.

Thanks bobbysamd...

 

[bobbysamd]

That's what I was looking for. I over looked that everytime I re-read the reg.

Thanks bobbysamd...

You're entirely welcome, my friend.

 

[plunger]

Bobby- mav has to be about suicidal by now. i haven't laughed all day. thanks again