If you're not ALPA...

[astroglider]

If you're not ALPA then you're part of the problem period. Airline Management has the ATA, the pilots?

Ever since some management HACK posted the ALPA HQ payscales, pilots have been complaining on airline boards both online and in crew lounges. I've heard these same complaints before. They're the same sort of complaints the public screams when they see pilot pay scales. While it does look like it might be time to revisit the topic of what these folks might be paid, I find this complaining a little hypocritical if not humorous. You complainers are doing the work of this Management Hack!!!

The ALPA folks on our side right? In good times and in bad our own local ALPA's have been able to ensure the highest pay possible and decent work rules decade in and decade out. Sure this is a cyclical business and right now is a tough time for all of us. This is exactly the time we need ALPA fighting for us...and this isn't cheap.

Every pilot group faces local issues and that's why we all have local ALPA's or some sort of in-house union or association. Where ALPA is different is we have a NATIONAL and INTERNATIONAL influence on aviation events. As pilots we face national and international issues on such things as govt legislation both foreign and domestic. We need a NATIONAL union.

Look back over history, every time a non-ALPA carrier gets into some heated contract dispute or a fight with Congress. WHO DO THEY CALL TO HELP??? They call ALPA. There are many examples of this. The most recent example that comes to mind is American's Allied Pilots Association during their first pay cut negotiations after 9/11 they came running to ALPA for the financial analysis. APA couldn't do it, they didn't have the resources to do it, so they asked ALPA.

Like any large organization ALPA may need to trim some fat but what we gain by having a large national union is more important.

 

[Fins Up]

Here we go again...

 

[tubelcane]

I worked at Allegheny and TWA. Do I need to elaborate?

 

[HalinTexas]

National union?

Yeah, right. uke:

 

[Networ-King]

If you're not ALPA then you're part of the problem period. Airline Management has the ATA, the pilots?

Ever since some management HACK posted the ALPA HQ payscales, pilots have been complaining on airline boards both online and in crew lounges. I've heard these same complaints before. They're the same sort of complaints the public screams when they see pilot pay scales. While it does look like it might be time to revisit the topic of what these folks might be paid, I find this complaining a little hypocritical if not humorous. You complainers are doing the work of this Management Hack!!!

The ALPA folks on our side right? In good times and in bad our own local ALPA's have been able to ensure the highest pay possible and decent work rules decade in and decade out. Sure this is a cyclical business and right now is a tough time for all of us. This is exactly the time we need ALPA fighting for us...and this isn't cheap.

Every pilot group faces local issues and that's why we all have local ALPA's or some sort of in-house union or association. Where ALPA is different is we have a NATIONAL and INTERNATIONAL influence on aviation events. As pilots we face national and international issues on such things as govt legislation both foreign and domestic. We need a NATIONAL union.

Look back over history, every time a non-ALPA carrier gets into some heated contract dispute or a fight with Congress. WHO DO THEY CALL TO HELP??? They call ALPA. There are many examples of this. The most recent example that comes to mind is American's Allied Pilots Association during their first pay cut negotiations after 9/11 they came running to ALPA for the financial analysis. APA couldn't do it, they didn't have the resources to do it, so they asked ALPA.

Like any large organization ALPA may need to trim some fat but what we gain by having a large national union is more important.

Astropuke......

Why don't you STFU!!!!!!!!! Crawl back to you cushy 76-400 and keep stomping the junior guys while greenslipping your paycheck so you can keep all your exwives happy. After 13 years of being an Alpa member, I can tell you that Alpa is corrupt all the way to the top..... so why don't you take woerthless and his secretary that makes 6 figures and shove them both up your a$$ and then get a clue. Freakin douchbag......

"If you're not Alpa..... then you ARE the luckiest pilot group out there."

Now thats what I think you meant to say..... right.... mr. douche?

 

[astroglider]

network King loser

hey networking loser...how 'bout writing a coherent post. What were you drunk or something when you wrote it. What's your deal? You can't refute facts so you IMMEDIATELY slide right into name calling.

I notice you are a frequent poster. Let me guess you start and/or end every day with a beer in your hand posting pathetic name calling drivel. If you want to enter the debate then fine. If you're just going to flame any poster that doesn't agree with you then piss off.

btw...I only flew the 767-400 for a few months before being displaced due to 9/11 and I don't greenslip because we have guys out on the street. So stop with the accusations...Sounds like you got furloughed from Delta and got a big chip on your shoulder for the guys still there. I'm sorry about the furlough...I've been furloughed before too, so welcome to the club and I can and will knock that chip off anytime you like...

 

[AAslag]

While your at it astroglider, try and knock the chip off of my shoulder too.

I need some exercise.

 

[3BCat]

If you're not ALPA then you're part of the problem period.

If you're not part of ALPA, then your problem is guys on their period.

 

[Bake]

If your not part of ALPA, then your airline is probabaly making money and you are not furloughed and/or you are not being asked to give back money.

"SAD BUT TRUE" can't help to throw in a little Metallica here and there.

 

[starvingredtail]

If there were leadership at oh, say....NWA, the CEO could put the company back in the black by leading by example........... by actually taking straight pay (no complex stock, golden parachutes, etc) and showing labor he was sharing their burden. At NWA, I would suggest the CEO's only salary should be no higher than the top Captain makes--good leadership.

Alpa/D. Worth should show the same leadership. I just ended my 8 year ALPA statis and I will admit it was not all bad and that there were some hard working folks there, BUT...there was a huge gap in integrety and simply a lack of leadership. We should see if we can't get Gorden Bethume to take the reigns of ALPA for a few years since he is currently under employed because he understands how to mold a team. I would think D. Worth would have been a hero if he had said"I am sharing your burden--I will take no more than I would have made as a whale Captain and we will cut the perks (ie limos, drivers, expense acct dinners) to the bone. He is using the same line these proven failure CEO's are using--which is "You have to pay top dollar to keep the best people" I think that is one of the things driving people in ALPA insane. ALPA leadership is really no different than, say....NWA leadership.

 

[BigKahuna]

I love how they are quick to bash unions until they get themselves in hot water and need representation!

ALPA or an independant union, They are needed to protect ourselves from management and ourselves.

 

[BigMotorToter]

If you're not ALPA then you're part of the problem period. Airline Management has the ATA, the pilots?

Ever since some management HACK posted the ALPA HQ payscales, pilots have been complaining on airline boards both online and in crew lounges. I've heard these same complaints before. They're the same sort of complaints the public screams when they see pilot pay scales. While it does look like it might be time to revisit the topic of what these folks might be paid, I find this complaining a little hypocritical if not humorous. You complainers are doing the work of this Management Hack!!!

The ALPA folks on our side right? In good times and in bad our own local ALPA's have been able to ensure the highest pay possible and decent work rules decade in and decade out. Sure this is a cyclical business and right now is a tough time for all of us. This is exactly the time we need ALPA fighting for us...and this isn't cheap.

Every pilot group faces local issues and that's why we all have local ALPA's or some sort of in-house union or association. Where ALPA is different is we have a NATIONAL and INTERNATIONAL influence on aviation events. As pilots we face national and international issues on such things as govt legislation both foreign and domestic. We need a NATIONAL union.

Look back over history, every time a non-ALPA carrier gets into some heated contract dispute or a fight with Congress. WHO DO THEY CALL TO HELP??? They call ALPA. There are many examples of this. The most recent example that comes to mind is American's Allied Pilots Association during their first pay cut negotiations after 9/11 they came running to ALPA for the financial analysis. APA couldn't do it, they didn't have the resources to do it, so they asked ALPA.

Like any large organization ALPA may need to trim some fat but what we gain by having a large national union is more important.

O.K. Duane.

 

[h25b]

The assertion the original thread starter is making has got to be a joke.

Was he honestly saying that those salaries shouldn't have been posted ??? And if he really thinks they are not overpaid in light of the current industry condition he's f'n nuts.

If DW was such a stand up guy he wouldn't be able to sleep at night after taking over about $10 bucks in annual compensation.

 

[A350]

All:

What you think of the pay scale at ALPA is of course a personal thing. However, those here in the aviation business that think is shouldn't ever see the light of day are kidding themselves. If ALPA is such a squeaky clean operation, then there should be no problem publishing these payouts in the magazine every year. There should be open disclosure about FPL, vacation cashout, the politics of who ends up where and why. Every pilot who wants to wear a suit and sit at the big table with the other suits always made me wonder.....what is their true motivation. To help the pilots of this union or to line his own pockets with the sweat of our brow? I think DW has been lining his pockets with the sweat of our brow and now after the a$$ rippin most of us took in pay, benefits, and career expectations, he still takes the check and runs.

I think that if we saw TRUE leadership from DW, maybe this wouldn't be so hard to swallow. Until we see it, then my opinion is that he and most of his employees are overpaid.


A350

 

[Osmosis]

I will say this much about ALPA, and unions in general. I came from the Air Force, so at first, I wasn't very informed about unions, and really didn't know what they did for me. As my company is in a contract dispute, having a union, and in our case ALPA, allows me to concentrate on two things; doing my job well when I am working, and making sure when I go home, I don't have to worry about anything besides spending time with my family. I don't have to worry about dealing my own contract. Will the results of a new contract be satisfactory or not to the masses? I don't know. But I do know as just a pilot, I'd rather have people representing me that know more about contracts, than me, who knows rudder and yoke only. I know there are alot of hard feelings both ways on unions/ALPA... but I am glad that negotiating a contract is one less thing I have to worry about in my life, and very much worth the union dues I pay.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I will say this much about ALPA, and unions in general. I came from the Air Force, so at first, I wasn't very informed about unions, and really didn't know what they did for me. As my company is in a contract dispute, having a union, and in our case ALPA, allows me to concentrate on two things; doing my job well when I am working, and making sure when I go home, I don't have to worry about anything besides spending time with my family. I don't have to worry about dealing my own contract. Will the results of a new contract be satisfactory or not to the masses? I don't know. But I do know as just a pilot, I'd rather have people representing me that know more about contracts, than me, who knows rudder and yoke only. I know there are alot of hard feelings both ways on unions/ALPA... but I am glad that negotiating a contract is one less thing I have to worry about in my life, and very much worth the union dues I pay.

And how much value is that? 1.95% of your pay satifactory?

How much value is a guy sitting before congress, the legislative body that will allow foreign carriers to eliminate your job/career, speaking on your behalf? If you don't realize the value of this then you certianly take it for granted.

Liken this to the freedom and our level of national security. A FA from czech who grew up behind the iron curtin said we americans don't know how good we have it.

Here you have one guy working 20+ days month representing pilots on critical issues. Speaking for Congressional Committees, meeting with congressmen and Cabinet memebers and generally representing us politically. Can you meet with a congressman and be effective? I said effective!

Pilots with his seniority are not worrying about these issues. They can, like the above quote, enjoy thier 15+ days off not worrying about the following issues.

Foreign ownership
Flight Duty Times
Negotiations.
Fatigue
The list is endless....

One of the reasons pilots can't stand the presidents salary is becuase they don't understand what they are getting in return. They do not understand the value. And until they do, it will be the same ol' arrogrant and ignorant vitrolic rant.

In addition, the Vice Presidents at ALPA are pilots from UAL, DAL and USAIR. They are making approx. 150K a year. And they too are working 20+ days a month. Should their expenses be covered with that 150K, such as overseas travel and meals and WashDC living?

The above quote is realistic and pragmatic. How refreshing.

Now, the rest of you can enjoy your days off, whether it is ten or 18, knowing you don't have to battle politics just to keep what is yours. However, when your ALPA leadership asks you to attend a LEC meeting, vote or attend a rally, what is 3 hours of your day?

 

[Osmosis]

Whoa, Rez. I understand all of the other things my union does for me. All of those issues you raised, and the others that exist, are important to me, and just another reason why I am glad to be supported by Union Management who take those subjects as their expertise, foreign ownership, duty days, etc., so I don't have to contact my congressman individually. And as you said, how effective would that be?

Only on this site can someone agree with you, but totally flame you on how you say it. And that may somehow reflect why as pilots as a whole, we have a difficult time being one voice... It is so hard to be one voice when we all come from different backgrounds, have different needs, wants, and work in different places. But we do need to be together to fight for what's right, and I think in my case, ALPA does that. I can only speak for myself.

Anyway, so that Rez can be clear, I appreciate ALL of the benefits my Union gives me, so that yes, I can not worry when I am at home, and especially when at the controls of multi-million dollar airplanes.

 

[81Horse]

Speaking of which -- from another thread:

http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2006/03/06/business/pilots.php

 

[PCL_128]

Whoa, Rez. I understand all of the other things my union does for me. All of those issues you raised, and the others that exist, are important to me, and just another reason why I am glad to be supported by Union Management who take those subjects as their expertise, foreign ownership, duty days, etc., so I don't have to contact my congressman individually. And as you said, how effective would that be?

Only on this site can someone agree with you, but totally flame you on how you say it. And that may somehow reflect why as pilots as a whole, we have a difficult time being one voice... It is so hard to be one voice when we all come from different backgrounds, have different needs, wants, and work in different places. But we do need to be together to fight for what's right, and I think in my case, ALPA does that. I can only speak for myself.

Anyway, so that Rez can be clear, I appreciate ALL of the benefits my Union gives me, so that yes, I can not worry when I am at home, and especially when at the controls of multi-million dollar airplanes.

I think what Rez is getting at is that it probably shouldn't end at the 1.95% we all pay in dues. ALPA PAC is where the money comes from to fight things like fatigue and foreign ownership. The PAC is funded only by voluntary contributions, not dues. You might want to consider sending a few bucks to the PAC in addition to the usual dues.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Whoa, Rez. I understand all of the other things my union does for me. All of those issues you raised, and the others that exist, are important to me, and just another reason why I am glad to be supported by Union Management who take those subjects as their expertise, foreign ownership, duty days, etc., so I don't have to contact my congressman individually. And as you said, how effective would that be?

Only on this site can someone agree with you, but totally flame you on how you say it. And that may somehow reflect why as pilots as a whole, we have a difficult time being one voice... It is so hard to be one voice when we all come from different backgrounds, have different needs, wants, and work in different places. But we do need to be together to fight for what's right, and I think in my case, ALPA does that. I can only speak for myself.

Anyway, so that Rez can be clear, I appreciate ALL of the benefits my Union gives me, so that yes, I can not worry when I am at home, and especially when at the controls of multi-million dollar airplanes.

Osmosis,

I realized when I was responding that I might come across as countering your post, however, I am in full agreement and used your post to speak to the masses.....

Rezfully yours....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think what Rez is getting at is that it probably shouldn't end at the 1.95% we all pay in dues. ALPA PAC is where the money comes from to fight things like fatigue and foreign ownership. The PAC is funded only by voluntary contributions, not dues. You might want to consider sending a few bucks to the PAC in addition to the usual dues.

PCL,

While I do support ALPA PAC, my point was realizing what kind of value we get from our ALPA National salaries.......

It is like buying a car with air conditioning in Texas, whereas the buyer says, what do I need ac for when I can roll down the windows?

Well, if you want to show up, hot, dusty and windblown then maybe ac has no value to you....

I want to show up relaxed, cool and comfortable, so ac has value for me... I think we all like ac, so much we that we take it for granted.. and when it doesn't work, life stinks... literally....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In U.S. airline fights, pilots often the last workers standing

Source: Comtex News Network (Associated Press Worldstream)

Airlines are a big union industry, and the big dog in every airline union fight is the pilots. So it's not surprising that they ended up as the last holdouts in the pay-cut negotiations at Northwest and Delta airlines.

The biggest pilot union, the Air Line Pilots Association, has a reputation for being a tough negotiator, but the list of its largest members reads like a who's-who of recent airline bankruptcies _ US Airways Group Inc., UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp.

On Friday, Northwest and its pilots reached a pay-cut deal. Delta's request to throw out its pilot contract was headed for a mediator.

To stay alive, bankrupt airlines have leaned _ hard _ on employees for pay cuts and more flexible work rules. Pilots, who can make $150,000 (?124,800) or more, have been a prime target, putting ALPA in one of its toughest fights since its founding in 1931.

ALPA isn't showing any signs of backing away from the fight. President Duane Woerth rallied Northwest pilots in Minneapolis on Feb. 23, telling them that the airline industry is poised for better times and that they'll be a part of it.

Mechanics and flight attendants generally haven't been able to shut airlines down with strikes. Pilots can. And they know it.

"They are hard and sophisticated negotiators," said Ben Hirst, who was Northwest's vice president for labor relations during a round of concessions in 1993.

"The difficulty in negotiating with them is, if they believe their position is right, they really will take it to the mat," Hirst said. "There's a lot of testosterone."

ALPA can throw a phalanx of lawyers, analysts and actuaries at high-stakes negotiations like the ones last week with Delta and Northwest airlines.

The pilots union has a history "of looking at the airline from an economic standpoint, from an investment standpoint, of really trying to understand the business they're negotiating with," Hirst said.

Woerth said several full-time staffers were working with Northwest union negotiators in New York, and about 60 staffers worked full-time on Northwest talks at ALPA headquarters, with plans to shift their attention to Delta talks next.

But all those union experts can't force airlines to make money. Older airlines (the ones started before government deregulation in the late 1970s) have been in deep trouble in recent years, pummeled by a punishing mix of terrorism fears, rising fuel prices, and discount carriers who grab lucrative routes and often pay their employees less.

The only time that was nearly as bad for ALPA was when Continental broke a pilots' strike in 1983, said George Hopkins, a recently retired airline labor historian at Western Illinois University in Macomb, Illinois.

"But I think now is worse. At least there was a semblance of congressional support for labor unions in the 1980s," he said.

And he said pilots face a danger at least as bad as pay cuts now _ slashed pensions. Federal rules force pilots to retire at age 60, before they're eligible for Social Security or Medicare. So their pension is crucial to their retirement, but those payments are slashed when bankrupt carriers slough off their pensions on the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.

While ALPA is the largest pilots' union, it isn't dominant. Pilots at AMR Corp.'s American Airlines _ the United States' largest _ and Southwest Airlines Co. each have their own unions. And many of the newer discount carriers are not ALPA-represented.

"ALPA has been slowly eroding in overall power," said Alan Bender, who teaches airline labor relations at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University. And a loosening of rules barring foreign airlines from flying within the U.S. could hand more pilot jobs to non-ALPA pilots, he said.

Hopkins, the historian, said ALPA hasn't had a friend in politics since Republicans took over Congress in 1994, and unions generally have been representing a shrinking share of the work force.

"I have a good deal of respect for Woerth. He's a keen student of the history of his union and his profession," Hopkins said.

"He understands where the industry has been, and where it's at right now. But I don't think anybody knows where it's going."

 

[Networ-King]

Astropuke,

You think I'm the one thats drunk? Thats kind of funny since you're the idiot that started pounding your chest about ALPO. So you've been furloughed, I'll call BS on that one or you would'nt have backed up this useless union. This union has gotten to be nothing but a bunch of money hungry, greedy, corrupt whores. As REZ puts its "PLOLITICS" I'm sure there are a ton of honest politicians out there!!!!!! Why else would they let a bunch of Scabs back in the union at CAL. Why else do they want to represent EVERYBODY....regional and majors and national and any other scumbag out there? Have you ever heard of "Conflict of Interest"? Because its all about the money. You need to get a grip before you tell people that they are part of the "problem" if they are not ALPO. You must be an idiot or just completely clueless to say something that stupid.

As for you not being part of the greenslipping whore machine at mother...? No big deal right. 550 hours this last month.... at least its down from the 5000 hours in AUG of last year. " Hey thanx for the support".

Supporting a POS union that allows opentime flying while guys are on furlough is outragous. Why don't they just write in the contract...."all pilots at delta not furloughed have the right to... any and all furloughed pilots the way they see fit". That would just about cover it. And thats just the tip of the iceberg. Yeah and after the last 4 plus years of getting sh!t on by my so called "bretheren" I AM going to have a chip on my shoulder. With all that hatred I have for you double breasted backstabbing, greenslipping, ..... So you keep on keep in on cause karma is a b!tch. And when you lose your job at delta, I'm sure you'll get a great job making 36500 dollars a years at a 135 operation with 4 hard days off a month and on the pager the rest of the time. Enjoy your job and the opentime flying while you have one.



And I never said I was anti UNION.... I said I am ANTI ALPA!!!! Unions are a necessary evil and Im glad to be part of a strong and united INHOUSE UNION. IPA 100%...

So put that in your crackpipe and smoke it astropuke..........

Again drop me a pm and I'll check how many greenslips you've done in the last 4 years. You don't, however need to pm me to tell me you have replied to my post. I can see perfectly fine ok there jerky??????????

edited for language.