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If this was a pilots fault......

sleddriver77

Reformed Bush Pilot
Joined
Feb 16, 2002
Posts
276
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OF COURSE it was a pilot's fault. Isn't it always? :rolleyes:
Why is it that controllers make little-bitty "operational errors" but we pilots make potentially career-ending "PILOT DEVIATIONS and runway INCURSIONS!?" Ya' gotta love the double standard. ComAir will probably get gigged for DEVIATING from their takeoff clearance and causing a loss of separation. Betcha I can guess which FLL controller was working local that night.
 
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NEDude

yada yada yada
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Dec 12, 2001
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I think part of the problem is that the United States allows controllers to anticipate sepration. In other words, they can clear an aircraft to land five miles out, even if there is another aircraft that is just crossing the hold short line for takeoff. They can do this because they are allowed to anticipate that the aircraft on the runway will be airborne by the time the aircraft on approach lands.

I noticed in Canada, they are not allowed this anticipation. The aircraft on approach is not cleared (at least in my experience) to land until the runway is clear and no other traffic will cross, depart, or land on the runway until after the approaching aircraft has landed.

Seems to me a lot of this is flight crews and controllers not continuing to monitor the runway environment after a clearance has been issued.
 

91100 100 set

to the book
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Dec 28, 2003
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NEDude said:
I noticed in Canada, they are not allowed this anticipation. The aircraft on approach is not cleared (at least in my experience) to land until the runway is clear and no other traffic will cross, depart, or land on the runway until after the approaching aircraft has landed.

I must question this statement. A few years ago, ALPA was on it's "stop international LAHSO" warpath and this kind of thing of thing was on everybody's mind. I can distinctly remember landing on 24R in YUL, in the rain, on a wet runway, and hearing a plane being cleared for takeoff on 28 (or whichever runway crosses 24R at the southwest corner of the airport). The sequence was like this: We'd just touched down (the nose was still up or at least light on the pavement) and we hear "Allegheny XXXX, hold short of 28". I didn't respond (we were busy landing). "Air Canada XXXX cleared for takeoff, 28" And off they go. Now, we all know that a Dash-8 landing on 24R, wet or not, has plenty of room to stop long before the intersection. But we were not issued a LAHSO prior to that, nor could we accept it on a wet runway, even if it was on LAHSO list (which I don't think it was at the time). In any case, it sure seemed to me like the controller was "anticipating" our stopping before the intersection (even if the Dash is practically already at taxi speed on touchdown).
 

sleddriver77

Reformed Bush Pilot
Joined
Feb 16, 2002
Posts
276
Total Time
10000+
100 set,

I believe once you have landed and the controller estimates you are "under control" and able to stop, they can assign you to hold short of an intersection, when they cannot issue a LAHSO clearance. At my last outfit, we did not have LAHSO in our Ops Specs, but they tried to do it all the time. A quick chat with our POI led to the following conclusion:

If any part of the airplane was still in the air, and we were instructed hold short of "X" we were to respond immediately with "unable." Once ON THE RUNWAY and applying the brakes, if we were certain we could stop in time, we could then OFFER to hold short of X, or accept (or for that matter still deny) instructions to hold short at that time. It's a technicality, but it is a technicality that bit another outfit when a guy "unknowingly" accepted a LAHSO clearance in a Part 135 C-206 (!) with 5,000+ (!!) of ALD. (Yep, some Fed was out flying that day and heard the guy do it, so he came over for a little chat and a violation.)
 

Al Coholic

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Posts
157
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Enough
Sure, the controlers need to have darn good situational awareness, but so do us pilots. Listen to the radio when your in postion and make sure another LAX isn't in the making.

If you're sitting in postion for a long while say something... Kudos to the US Air crew for knowing the RJ was sitting there.
 
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